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Step-parenting

What Is Reasonable?

54 replies

FiveHappyFrogs · 07/05/2018 09:09

Hi,

Sorry I'm new to this but I will try get everything across so please bear with me!

DH and I are trying to draw up a parenting plan for him and DSS mother to suggest to her. DSS is 7. DSS mother is very hostile towards DH and the purpose of said plan is to hopefully reduce conflict between them.

The longest DSS has ever spent with us consecutively is 3 nights - her choice. She also will not permit him to go on holiday with us.

I've seen here before and feel a need to say that DH and I have been together for 5 years and we have a child of our own. I was not the OW, she left him and we got together about a year after their split.

DH is going to propose taking DSS EOW Friday from school until Monday morning again at school. He is also going to suggest half of the holidays for Easter and summer. EXW is happy for OH to take DSS over holidays because it helps with childcare but she does not want it to be in consecutive nights more than 3 nights at a time because she misses him too much. Even when he is with us for 2/3 nights DH is bombarded with text messages and phone calls during that time which is really intrusive in to his time with DSS and in all honestly puts a fair amount of strain on our relationship.

I suppose my main question is how much contact do you think is reasonable with resident parent when child is with non resident parent? We're trying to go to email rather than texts. Would you say one email a day when he is with us is sufficient to suggest? Should he be phoning her during that time? For more extended time we are going to try get a consecutive week - how much is reasonable then? And how often would DSS be expected to be in contact with her eg. Via video call? Obviously if DSS wants or asked to phone his mum we would never say no to that - but he's never asked before, it is her who insists we set time aside to make him phone her.

Does anybody have any experience of what main points should be covered for a parenting plan of a 7 year old in a situation where ideally we'd have as much limited / indirect contact with EXW while having as much time with DSS as is reasonable.

Thanks in advance. Sorry if any of that was unclear!

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Flowerpotbicycle · 07/05/2018 09:30

EOW and half the holidays is pretty standard so I don’t think you’re asking for much there.
She should be allowing you to take him on holiday for a week - 2 weeks maybe a bit too long, but a week in the sun somewhere is definitely not too much ask.
Does he have other siblings at home with mum? My Ex doesn’t have our son for more than 2 nights consecutively (apart from when they go on holiday) because I also have a DD and I don’t think it’s nice for the two siblings to be separated too long, and they like to be together.

Also when you say your DP is “bombarded”, is he really or are you annoyed because you feel she shouldn’t be contacting him at all during that time? My ex and I communicate almost daily about our son. If your DP wants to cut his communication down with his Ex could you consider getting DSS an iPad so him and his mum could FaceTime if they want to? It means they could chat if they’re missing each other but your DP doesn’t have to deal with.

I personally wouldn’t like to be told I couldn’t talk or ask about my child when he’s with his dad. Similarly I would never say my Ex couldn’t talk to his son when he’s with me. Does your DP not contact his ex or ask about his son or phone him in between contact weekends? Because if you go down the route of “its our time, don’t contact us” then his ex could always say the same and two weeks would feel like an eternity for your DP not to speak to DSS.

And lastly, unless she’s hostile I would not email saying this is what you want etc because I think texts/emails tone can be misread and it can cause more issues than it’s worth. I would suggest your DP ask to meet her for a coffee or ask her in for a cup of tea at pick up/drop off time and have a chat about it. You shouldn’t be involved in this conversation if you want it to stay amicable because it’s between the parents to arrange contact times / access and it’s for your DSS and his dad, not you iyswim.

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NorthernSpirit · 07/05/2018 09:40

Don’t bother. If the mum won’t let you take the children on holiday or do anything for more than 3 nights then I would bi pass negotiations with her and go to court. If your OH has them EOW does she not think he misses them?

The ‘standard’ contact (although personally I think it should start at 50:50) is EOW, a night in the week and half of all holidays (so that’s going to mean longer than 3 nights in the summer). Alternative Easter, Christmas.

My OH has the kids EOW and it’s written into his contact order he can phone 3 times a week at (a certain time) and the mother must make them available.

As to the mother ringing in your time (which is limited) I would regulate this as it’s disruptive to your time. My OH was only ‘allowed’ to ring the children 3 x per week and he wouldn’t see them for 12 days but on the 2 days we had them the mum woukd be ringing and texting constantly. We would never stoop to her low level and restrict contact but it’s whats reasonable.

It sounds like the mum could be difficult with your OH having them more than 3 nights. If that’s the case get don’t mess around take it to court as quickly as possible to nip her silliness in the bud. Your OH can represent himself and it costs £215.

My OH spent 2 years trying to negotiate with a very difficult EW who limited contact. He wishes he had gone to court sooner. There’s no flexibility in a court agreed contact order but you know were yiuvstabd and it takes the mothers control away.

Contact isn’t for the mother to control or dictate, it’s the children’s right.

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Socrates73 · 07/05/2018 09:43

I feel a bit sorry for the mum in this to be honest. I co parent and miss my ds when he's away. His dad sends texts, videos and photos if they are out and about and I love this. I do the same when he's with me. I think rigidly enforcing minimal contact (especially because it's irritating you!!) will make her more hostile not less. Texting and WhatsApp ing photos is so easy I'd recommend that your dh actually acknowledges that she misses him and makes an effort to update/contact her regularly. Having two loving parents who miss him whilst he is away is a good thing for the boy and I think you should stop turning it into a negative.

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Flowerpotbicycle · 07/05/2018 09:54

@Socrates73 I totally agree with you.
My ex and I have a family group chat on WhatsApp with his parents, mine, our brothers (DS’s uncles) etc and we share all our pics and videos on there so I’m never missing him, and neither is he.

Could you try our approach OP? It definitely makes for a healthier dynamic and happier kids all round if the parents get along and can contact the kids whenever they want.

It comes across a bit that you feel his Ex is a nuisance for missing her son. I hope she doesn’t take the same approach to your DP.
Whizzing into court at the first opportunity isn’t good advice either. It’s a bit extreme. Your DP needs to explain he wants to take his son on holiday on X date and emphasise it’s for his son’s benefit and enjoyment.
It can be hard letting go when you’re the resident parent, raising them day in day out. Missing him doesn’t make her a bad person. I’m missing my DS so much this morning! You must see how much your DP misses him too, she’s feeling the same way when he’s with you

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FiveHappyFrogs · 07/05/2018 10:04

Thank you for the reply @Flowerpotbicycle

DSS does not have any siblings at his mothers house. In fact EXW makes a huge deal to both of them about starting that DSS is an only child apart from when he is on our time and has previously told DSS that our child is not his "real" sibling.

I would never suggest that DSS not be allowed to phone his mum if he wanted, however I was just wondering what people think would be a suitable proposal to go in with in regards to this. In an ideal world DSS would call her in private - we don't even have an issue with this being from DH phone. However the issue is when she demands he call her at a certain time eg. I need to speak to him at 7pm on Saturday and then when he's trying to enable it DSS does not want to speak to his mum because he's too busy running about playing with his friends / cousins / sibling. He has had to stop communication between visits on EXW time because she was using it as an opportunity to start arguments while DSS was there. So he's had to take a step back from it to avoid DSS being exposed to it.

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FiveHappyFrogs · 07/05/2018 10:10

Sorry I should also say that she has recently went to a solicitor over his polite request that they now use email and is currently withholding contact until he agrees to communicate by text. It is her solicitor that is requesting a parenting plan proposal and contact will not be re-started until she receives this.

Sorry for the drip feed.

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Flowerpotbicycle · 07/05/2018 10:18

Well that’s unreasonable and paints a different picture Confused
Would the iPad idea not work? And you could just make it clear DSS has access to it whenever he wants and can call or text off that. If he doesn’t you’re not going to force him to, if he does want to then no one is stopping him. That takes the onus off your DP to facilitate their communication.

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FiveHappyFrogs · 07/05/2018 10:21

@Flowerpotbicycle @Socrates73 You both sound like lovely, mature and reasonable parents and I genuinely wish with all my heart that I was in a co-parenting relationship with either of you!

I understand it's normal for a mum to miss her children. I miss my own like crazy when they're not with me... this I feel just goes beyond that. She wants everything to be stopped there and then on her demand and if it doesn't for X,Y,Z reasons then all hell breaks lose and he's not allowed overnight contact again because the last time he did "this or this" When DH is with his son he's not looking at his phone constantly. Sometimes we actually even go out and make a point of not taking phones! It's not that I don't understand that she misses him, and I don't really get involved but I see DSS stressed out and I see DH distracted and stressed out and I see my child being cut off from contact from their sibling for weeks / months (currently it's been 6 weeks) and I am well and truly exasperated. My child takes a photo of their brother to bed with tthem and asks every night when they will see them again. It breaks my heart. I just am trying to piece together a plan that will work for everybody.

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Socrates73 · 07/05/2018 10:55

Hmm that does sound tricky op, this is why we exchange videos rather than face time so you're not expecting a child to stop something they enjoy in order to contact a parent. I hope you can sort something out that makes everybody happy but it sounds as if you could have an uphill struggle no matter what you do.
I'd maybe open negotiations by asking her how much contact she wants and then discuss times, ways etc. I think if you go in saying "we're only prepared to send one email a day" as an opening gambit this may set an even more negative tone to the meeting.

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FiveHappyFrogs · 07/05/2018 11:42

Thank you for your suggestions, I find it really useful to hear it from the other side of the fence, because I literally just want a solution that will allow us all to move on with our lives, I don't want to inflame the situation more.

I think I will definitely suggest the iPad - as you say make her aware that DSS can call or text her whenever he wants to but that DH will not be force him in to it if he doesn't? Does that sound like a reasonable proposal? And then additionally DH could say for example send a quick update once per day to her just to say all is okay? I'm not obviously used to having to draw up parenting plans but we cannot afford to consult a solicitor at this point, particularly when it looks as though mediation is inevitable.

We're trying to put some sort of shared online tool together also where photos could be shared, but so far that has not been agreed to either. She wants everything by text, however that provides a method for her to come back immediately to him with passive aggressive comments about what's in the photos eg. Don't let him go too high on that swing, I hope you're not feeding him ice cream again, he's too near the water in that picture.

I think as far as me and him are concerned we would love to have the sort of friendly relationship with EXW whereby it is possible to have a good relationship and share everything for everybody's benefit, but it just does not seem to be possible with her and it's not getting any better over time.

I have not meant to come across as though I resent her for texting etc, what I'm meaning is that things get majorly blown out of proportion which then has a knock on effect on my relationship with DH because he then has to put all his time and focus on to trying to calm his EXW down meaning that his child, our child and our relationship get put on the back burner. I think for her it a way of still controlling his time.

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NorthernSpirit · 07/05/2018 13:34

Go to court. It’s disgusting behaviour that she is withholding contact because she isn’t getting her own way. Using children as weapons is the low of the low. It will only get worse. Been there...

Any judge would state that communication needs to be done by email.

Get a contact order.

I wounder how the mother would feel if the shoe was on the other foot and the dad didn’t let the kids see the mum?

My OH’s EW stopped contact and a judge threatens to take the children off her if she continued her selfish behaviour.

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Magda72 · 07/05/2018 13:53

Hi @FiveHappyFrogs - re what @Flowerpotbicycle & @Socrates73 say about contact....while I think it's great that works for them I think managing contact outside of access hours is very subjective. I get on quite well with my exh but I only send him the rare photo & I prefer when he does similar. I needed boundaries with him as while he had broken up the family by having an affair he also wanted to act like nothing had changed (by contacting me all the time & sending me photos/videos of the kids etc.). Personally I felt that I was making my own new memories with the kids & that I didn't need him to be sharing his with me. We co parent very effectively but for me we are no longer a family but rather two separate families.
If I am away with the kids & they want to send him pics or txts of course I facilitate that as that's their interaction with their dad.
All I'm saying here is if you & dp feel she's being intrusive in your lives then stick by your guns.
Your requests seem very reasonable & personally I feel that exes who don't have an amicable relationship should keep contact to a minimum - that way things stand a better chance of staying civil.

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FiveHappyFrogs · 07/05/2018 14:17

Thanks for the replies @NorthernSpirit and @Magda72..,

We're severely lacking in boundaries at the moment, and that's what we're trying to put in to place, so I agree that contact between DH and EXW needs to be kept to a minimum for the time being. Like I say that's not to say that he would in any way prevent DSS from contacting her on his time, just that he doesn't necessarily want to be a part of that communication because it leaves him wide open to insults.

He does work shifts which he usually gets about 3 months in advance and they usually agree contact based on that once he has his shifts. I understand how annoying that must be for her to not be able to plan ahead etc, but she's now saying that because he won't text, she will not co-operate on the shift situation anymore and wants a firm plan in place. Fair enough. It reduces conflict all round if there's a plan to go by. Nobody is disagreeing from that point of view. It just means that DSS will sometimes be here when his dad is working weekends and there will be other weekends where he is off where he won't be able to see him. But I suppose it's still better than the no contact that's currently happening.

DSS mum works business hours Mon-Fri and has every weekend off. During the week DSS goes to school for before and after school care. I have suggested to DH that actually from DSS point of view, it would maybe be better for him to be here Mon-Fri where he would be having regular contact with his dad and sibling, would avoid having to be put in to breakfast / after school care, and then could spend say 3 out of 4 full weekends with his mum... we think that actually that would give a better time of split between parents. Especially because when DH works weekends he gets days off through the week which would enable him to spend even more time with DSS then. But I think it would be a non starter getting that agreed to when we can barely get weekend time agreed.

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Smeddum · 07/05/2018 14:21

I miss DS1 when he’s at his Dad's (EOW). What I don’t do is let DS1 see that or make it all about me. In fact I make a point of saying I hope he enjoys his time with his dad and SM and that I can’t wait to hear about it. He and I FaceTime while he’s away but that’s mostly because he’s in his room on his own, so I keep him company. I wouldn’t ever insist on dropping everything or demanding specific arrangements!

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FiveHappyFrogs · 07/05/2018 14:30

@Smeddum Again, you sound like a lovely, reasonable mum and I completely envy the person who gets to co-parent with an adult!

We've had to deal with scenarios where DSS will say things like "I'm not allowed to go away with you because my mum would worry about me too much" and DH has to deal with dramatic displays of "one more kiss" (DSS not DH - I hope! 😄) before he goes with him and his EXW running out to the car when he drops him back after 2 days of contact because she "couldn't wait one more second to see him."

On any occasion when we have been taking DSS Friday-Sun she will actually take a half day off work on the Friday so that she can pick DSS up from school and take him home first to say goodbye to him before DH can then pick him up from her house and take him because otherwise it's too long. Therefore I don't think the Friday-Monday plan will be agreed to, but we can ask.

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FiveHappyFrogs · 07/05/2018 14:33

If the iPad idea would be agreed to then I think that could definitely be a good solution... I just wasn't sure if 7 was too young to be given access to FaceTime / phone calls? We could put childlock restrictions on it and only keep vital numbers on it though.

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Smeddum · 07/05/2018 14:40

@FiveHappyFrogs until XH married his wife I hadn’t had the experience of coparenting with an adult. She’s been a saviour! (He’s a massive arsehole)

I think you’d be reasonable to go to court to set things out and ensure that your DSS is getting what he needs from both parents without his Mum using it to score points. It makes me very sad when parents do this, because in the long run it’s the child who suffers.

It sounds like you and your DH are doing everything you can to reason with her and unfortunately she’s not cooperating. In fact you may have a case for parental alienation, which I believe became a criminal offence recently.

I hope things work out for the best OP Flowers

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Smeddum · 07/05/2018 14:41

DS1 has an iPhone but it only has family numbers in it, and we check it regularly (he’s 11) but in your circumstances I’d have given him one at that age.

Only thing I’d be worried about is his mum “losing” it. It’s a very expensive bit of kit to keep replacing.

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FiveHappyFrogs · 07/05/2018 16:23

Thank you @Smeddum Smile She definitely uses contact with DSS as a form of punishment when DH and her have any disagreements which in the end is really DSS actually being punished...

I hope it will get better as DSS gets older and is able to communicate directly with DH outwith contact times, but right now we'd probably keep any devices here only for use to contact EXW just in case as you say it was to go missing if he took it home through the week.

DH is wary of throwing the "alienation" term about because aside from the withholding of contact (which her solicitor seems to be saying is fine?!) anything else he's heard that's lead him to believe that may well be happening, has come straight from DSS mouth. Any time he has asked her "DSS was saying to me today that you and his gran don't like me" etc then she shrugs it off as DSS must have misheard / misunderstood or else she just denies ever having said anything. I don't think it would be easy to prove unfortunately.

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user1493413286 · 07/05/2018 17:46

My DSD doesn’t generally speak to her Mum when shes with us for a weekend; during the holidays I’d say it’s every couple of nights.
DSD often doesn’t want to call her mum; not because of any issue with her Mum but she’s often busy playing etc so isn’t bothered and I think she finds it a bit unsettling and in the past it’s made her homesick when she’d been fine until then

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Bananasinpyjamas11 · 08/05/2018 00:30

An agreed schedule seems better all round than constant conflict. It sounds like just the holidays that may be tricky, as a child I’d find it a much to go three days one house, three days another. Is your DP actually going to be around in the holidays? I’d start with asking for a four or five day stint, ease the mother into it.

The other thing that strikes me is that you are trying very hard. To the point of making yourself parent just to suit DPs shifts and regular schedule. I worry that this might not be great for the kids or you. A little bit of filling in might be okay, but more than that, why? The kids want a relationship with their parents, and it’s awkward with us SMs. Not sure you are thinking that through?

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FiveHappyFrogs · 08/05/2018 07:13

@user1493413286 That was the thing that we were worried about before. EXW made such a huge deal via solicitor that DSS couldn't not come with us because he would miss her too much... so insisted that she spoke to him regularly while he was away. But when he didn't even mention her, we didn't see what the point was in bringing it to his attention in case it triggered something. Of course it caused word war 3!

@Bananasinpyjamas11 We are completely stuck between a rock and a hard place at the moment. EXW is saying she will not agree to allow him to see his DSS until a rigid schedule is agreed with no ad hoc arrangements. DH physically can't agree to that because of shifts. So the only solution is to offer a schedule? When it means he might not even be here anyway. It's such a rubbish situation.

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FiveHappyFrogs · 08/05/2018 07:25

@Bananasinpyjamas11 Forgot to add: during holidays like Easter / Christmas he should be able to get a week off for each, and will probably be able to get a week off during summer too. He gets days off through the week which is always good in summer because he can see DSS then which doesn't happen when he's at school obviously. And DH parents have said they can take DSS for a week if he wants.

It still means that DSS will be spending probably a fair amount of time with me and my family though which although isn't a problem, doesn't seem to make sense from my point of view because as to say it's his parents he wants to see more than anything else.

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Bananasinpyjamas11 · 08/05/2018 14:03

I understand, and it sounds like you are trying to be helpful to both DP and their Mum. I would just try to minimise extensive periods with just you as parent, the odd weekend, fine, however what if you end up with a resentful teenager who is with you for a week and decided that you are not their Mum so rebels? I know it’s a long time away.

Just don’t set yourself up for a fall!

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Magda72 · 08/05/2018 14:52

I think in all these situations it has to be viewed as what will be best for the child/children.
Like @Bananasinpyjamas11 I would think that spending long periods of time with you as opposed to either of his parents is not in his best interests & will eventually cause resentment.
Has your dp sought his own legal advice?

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