Looks like we're going to court - anyone with CAFCASS experience?

[poppiesmum]

My dh has an 8yo dd with his ex who despite a contact order he hasn't seen all year. Ex says it's dd's decision and will not force her. Dh has taken difficult decision to go back to court to enforce the court order.

It is likely CAFCASS will get involved to establish dd's reasons for not wanting to see her dad, which we think will be a good thing as we believe she is being influenced by her mum.

Has anyone had any experience of what will happen? Dh is completely devavstated by the situation and all he wants is to see his dd again.

[sidey]

Hi my dh has had the same problem. He hasn't seen his son or daughter in 6 years. We spent thousands on court fees and contact orders were made but still didn't see them. His ex kept saying the kids didn't want to see him but she is such a psycho that we know she has influenced them against dh. CAFCASS will speak to kids and also the parents, but to be honest they did no good for us. Solicitor told us ex could go to prison if she didn't keep to contact order, BUT what judge will send a mother of two to prison????!!!! At the moment there is nothing he can do and hopefully when kids get older they will realise themselves. Sorry this is negative but this is what has happened to us

[poppiesmum]

sidey - thanks for your message, so sorry to hear your experience. Sounds very similar to ours! Did nothing come out from CAFCASS interviewing the kids about the underlying reasons for not wanting to see their dad? Dh's dd is only 8 and apparently the court views this as too young to make that sort of decision on their own. Our only hope is that by speaking to her it would be clear to see the indirect influencing on the part of her mother.

[poppiesmum]

ex and dd live 200 miles away so turning up not an option. Contact order instigated by dh when they said they were moving to ensure that he stayed in contact, however, that still hasn't happened. Solicitor has agreed with sideys commen, that courts unlikely to send mother to prison, more interested in finding out the underlying reasons for contact breaking down. Just wondered whether CAFCASS really do help - there is no reason for dh not to see dd, he has always stuck to contact arrangments and paid his way, but we are now battling against the ex and her influence over dd.

[poppiesmum]

That sounds more hopeful - last thing we want is to spend loads of time and money and to put dd through the process and not get anywhere in the end. Did your children get interviewed? What were they asked?

[zookeeper]

I do family law work and this makes me so frustrated!! If a mum or dad constantly breaches a court order the penalty is supposed to be a penal notice - but I've never yet had a judge give one. The argument is always that the kids will suffer if mum goes to prison.

The idea is that the parent with the child should promote and encourage that child's contact with the other parent but some mums are so wrapped up with hatred for their exes (and often with good reason ) that they can't or won't do it.

The other sanction is for the non-resident parent to be given a residence order but this rarely happens because it is so drastic.

the problem is that even if the mum is a complete bitch it would hurt the child to "punish" her.

Cafcass are good - they will often be well aware what is going on - but they cannot turn parents who are prepared to abuse their children in this way into reasonable people. Court order or no, it is very easy for parents to poison their children against each other and if the child doesn't want to go with the parent who turns up fpr a visit then they can hardly be dragged kicking and screaming away if they don't want to go.

Frankly, although the courts bend over backwards to help dads in this position,in my experience dads usually get so fed up of the whole process that they give up and decide to wait for the child to see the light. Some dads keep going back to court and back again but it is very costly, exhausting and soul-destroying and they only get orders that are broken again and again. In the meaantime the child is told by mummy that daddy is taking mummy to court again. It's horrible
It would be a help if you were nearer to the child - is moving an option ? - then , say, a couple of hours in the local park would be a starting point and something to build on.

It's such a horrible frustrating position to be in - dh has my sympathy.

[poppiesmum]

Thanks for your comments mummypumpkin. Thankfully dh is nothing like your ex sounds - he used to have a very close relationship with dd and just wants to be part of her life again. However, ex refuses to see that it's her words and actions that are shaping dd's feelings towards her dad and that dd sees mum getting upset and feels loyal to her and won't say she then wants to see her dad. Dh only wants to put dd through a court process if he's sure they will help him regain contact.

[poppiesmum]

Zookeeper - thanks for your advice, it's good to hear from someone in the profession. What you describe is exactly what we know is happening - a problem that has become worse since dh's and my wedding and subsequent baby. Dd has met her sister and had a lovely time playing with her which was lovely to see. The sad thing is that dh and I have been together for 6 years and have enjoyed many great times with his dd, but we can see the influencing that is taking place at her home by her mum. You are right - the thought of months of court action, the financial and emotional cost are truly off-putting and dh has considered giving up. We also know that if contact were re-inststated, his ex would not change and the pressure for dd at home would probably get worse. We really don't know what to do for the best.

[zookeeper]

poppiesmum -It's so difficult - Tell him to try to keep an line of communication open, even if it is to send a cards, postcards, etc with a short note(nothing to heavy)and photos of the baby, anything to show his commitment to her and to let her know he loves her.

Does he get copies of all her reports, etc from her school? He should do - they would help to give him something to talk abour when he writes.

Has he tried mediation? That often works and the beauty of an agreemnet( as opposed to a court order) is that neither parent feels as though they have been compelled to do something they don't want to.

The children are never taken to court and in an ideal world should really be unaware that the court proceedings are going on. In an ideal world...

[zookeeper]

mummiepumpkin - I just don't believe that you were told by your solicitor that you were 100% going to prison if you missed one contact weekend after only missing one weekend before that. As if. Equally, why would your ex take you to vcourt if contact was going well?
There is no minmum age where the courts have to listen to the children - they go on the maturity of the child concerned. You've got Cafcass wrong too - it's concerned with the rights of the child and it's accepted that the child has a right to know both his parents unless it can be shown that it is not in the best interests of the child.

To be honest, you obviously loathe your ex and don't appear to have made a secret of it- don't you think that your child might have picked up on thatand have very divided loyalties?

[poppiesmum]

Thanks zookeeper - we have always sent photos and written, and dh has tried to call but it is so difficult. He has suggested mediate before but the ex refused, maybe we'll try again as a last ditch attempt before lodging the petition to the court. Dh really doesn't want to put dd through it. Even though she would not need to go herself, we know that her mum would be telling her all about it every step of the way (and then she wonders why dd says she doesn't want to see her dad!??) We need to give it some more serious thought.

[zookeeper]

Ire ally hope it works out - it most be so unbearable for your DH - good luck

[Surfermum]

Oh poppiesmum, I feel for you. My dh had to get a contact order to see his dd and it's stressful for everyone involved, not least the child. Dh represented himself when he could no longer afford a solicitor and he got on fine. He felt the Courts were sympathetic to the fact that he was a litigant in person and didn't know all the etiquette. He ended up with contact every 3rd weekend and half of the school holidays.

In dsd's case CAFCASS acknowledged that she was likely to be reflecting the parent with care's opinion and they observed him having contact with her and based their opinion on that. His x tried to say that dsd wouldn't know him, that she was afraid of him, but all they saw was a little girl having a great time with her Daddy.

Would it be OK if I CAT you? I have some other info that you might find helpful.

[poppiesmum]

Hi surfermum - thanks for the info. By all means CAT me - any info would be appreciated. We are just trying to weigh up the benefits of re-establishing his relationship with dd against the hassle that will be happening at home as her mum will not protect her from the events as she tells her everything. Didn't realise that CAFCASS may observe him and dd together - can he request that if they don't suggest it? Seeing them together out somewhere would be useful (especially if they also witness the number of time her mum calls her while they are together!) Thanks v much

[Surfermum]

Dh's x was also of the opinion that she should keep nothing from dsd, so she knew exactly what was going on. She knows everything about their relationship too. There was one very upsetting evening when his x was refusing to let dh speak to dsd and she was saying to her "come and tell your dad you don't want to speak to him" and more often than not at that stage she would have a go at dh about something before handing the phone to dsd. We wondered at that point if trying to keep up the weekly phone call that was ordered by the Court was really worth persisting with - not because dh didn't want the contact, far from it, but we wondered if it were really in dsd's best interests to be hearing the stuff she heard. Dh did though because he didn't want his dd to ever feel like he'd not bothered to ring her.

We're now 8 years down the line and I don't think it's affected dsd's relationship with dh. She loves coming here and they're really close. We just concentrated on making sure that she had a great time when she was here, not in terms of buying her stuff or taking her places, but the time dh spends with her. We've never said bad anything to her about her mum and never discuss any of the disputes they've had. If she's asked questions we've answered them as honestly and diplomatically as we could without laying any blame at her mother's feet.

Things are so much more settled now and dh and his x can communicate much better, and he even goes in for a cuppa when he picks dsd up. And that's something I thought I'd never see happen, so hang on in there.

[Surfermum]

Mummypumpkin, please don't think you can't post on the stepmums section. I think it's really helpful to have perspective from all sides and constructive advice or comments are always welcome as far as I'm concerned .

[poppiesmum]

Mummypumpkin - don;t feel you can't post here - I asked for advice and am grateful for whatever examples other mums can share with me. They are helping us balance both sides of the argument

[poppiesmum]

bump for the afternoon mums!

[poppiesmum]

bump - any more experience out there?

[pedilia]

my experience is very similar to mummypumpkin- my ex has been having access for ages and decided to take me to court, he got legal aid and I ended uo with a bill for 8k and he doesn't even pay maintenance!!

I was made to feel like the bad parent even though there had been domestic violence and days he would let me know an hour before he was due that he was not coming for a visit.

Cafcass were useless and it was obvious from day one that contact would ne given no matter what and if I did not make DS available I would face prison or possible curfews/tagging

The family court system is a joke!!

[poppiesmum]

Oh dear - there really is a mix of experiences out there, so sorry to hear yours. We have heard from the solicitor today who has outlined the process once we lodge the petition with the court to get his x to comply with the contact order. It sounds very long winded and will involve at least 3 trips to court for the parents. A CAFCASS report can apparently take 12 weeks to compile, but it is encouraging that they will speak to dh's dd as this is something he is not able to do. They will also arrange a time to observe the two of them together too, which we hope will help.