Anyone help with PECS

[sadminster]

I haven't had any training apart from ten minutes with the SALT last week. DS has some words but will not use them to request.

We've started with one card (biscuit) what she said to do was

• engineer the situation so that he sees a biscuit that he wants but don't offer it to him.
• when he reaches for the biscuit the prompter puts the card in his hand & helps him hand it to me
• I say biscuit & give him the biscuit

but where is the card supposed to be at the beginning - with the prompter or do I give him the card when he notices the biscuit? He's so fixated on the biscuit that I don't think he notices the card - he'll usually reach for it with which ever hand doesn't have the card then run off as quickly as possible. I don't think he's learning anything.

[cyberseraphim]

If he has some words I would just give him the biscuit and say biscuit several times and gradually withhold it until he says biscuit. However PECS did not work for my son, although I know it can work very well for some children, so I am probably biased. I can't really remember now but I thought PECS started with just a card for requesting (anything not just one item) and that the requesting was re inforced with whatever the child is working for. For something so 'simple' it can get quite complicated !

[cyberseraphim]

Yes meant to say - virtually impossible without help to hand over hand requesting so is a 2 person job

[sadminster]

thanks - that's what I thought (two people), it doesn't work very well with only an 8yo to help. Arrrggghh.

[cyberseraphim]

I checked the PECS site - the one card of a biscuit is correct in Phase 1 so I have false memory syndrome about not being that so please ignore.

[sadminster]

cyber that's what we've been trying (or Hanen style, any attempt at a word/sound) - ds will not imitate sounds though (have no idea where he got the words he has but I have never managed to teach him anything). It is beyond frustrating.

[sadminster]

ah I hadn't thought to look at the pecs site thanks for the idea!

[cyberseraphim]

He is still young in ASD years. DS1 really had no expressive language at all until around 3.6 years and not much immediate echolalia (which is what Hanen relies on for their biscuit technique) until around 4 years. If an ASD child develops functional language it often happens in the 3-5 age slot so don't give up hope too soon. Unfortunately time and perseverance are the main ingredients though whereas we would all like an overnight miracle instead !

[sadminster]

thanks for the tips - will try again tomorrow.

[sadminster]

made much more sense this morning ... not sure ds gets it but the transaction was smoother!

[mumgoingcrazy]

We started PECS about 2 months ago and were in the same boat as you in that the SALT gave me a quick intro and left me to it. I can highly recommend 'A Pictures Worth', in fact I think busybeingmum recommended it to me. It's guided me through when the SALT's advice wasn't always that great.

We never had a prompter. DH is not around much in the week and my 4yr DD is very hit and miss with how helpful she wants to be. It has worked very well for us though, already many tantrums have stopped as she just gives me the symbol of what she wants.

I think the key is getting a really good motivator, ours was having a go on the laptop . Anyhow, it worked DD2's got it and we're on a roll now (I hope). Good luck!

[sadminster]

thanks - I have a friend who uses PECS at work so I'm going to see if she can lend me any resources.

Had minor success last night when ds took the card without prompting & started to hand it over - needed a bit of help then, but I think he's getting the idea (he then fed me the biscuit because he didn't want it )

[saintlydamemrsturnip]

"he then fed me the biscuit because he didn't want it"

the most important thing when starting PECS is to use something the child does want. Doesn't matter what it is, or how odd. Use his very favourite thing in the world initially.

PECS course essential if it's something you'll be using for a while.

[sadminster]

bubbles or Mr Tumble ... will make new cards today.

[cyberseraphim]

Not being able to find anything that was a strong motivator was one of the reasons we did not get PECS to work. There does seem to be an assumption that all ASD children must be obsessed with something. But the point about directing communication to someone is a good one - although in our case, the SALT did not believe that DS1 was already requesting from specific people. This is one of the real problems I think , that there is no full and shared (SALT/Parent) assessment of what is really needed.

[saintlydamemrsturnip]

lack of reinforcers is a huge problem for ds1 as well. We had one when we started with PECS. Luckily it was a strong one. But it's a problem that we still struggle with today. PECS is now so well understood by him that he uses it for a lot more than requesting, but in the early days that strong reinforcer was essential.

I did find a lot of SALTS using reinforcers that they thought he should like (eg teddies ffs) - again we needed the SALT who actually had autism experience and understood the importance of getting the correct items together.

[cyberseraphim]

I like the Hanen advice that you should respond to any communication as though it were purposeful (even if you know/suspect it is not). A child might look/move towards bubbles (ok I know some hate the bubbles thing but it does work for us). You say 'Bubbles' and give them to the child. If I ask DS1 a question about where to go or what to eat, I respond to the answer even if I know/suspect it is just an answer he has given for the sake of an answer. He is learning that answers are required and that his answer has meaning. ( I hope !!)

[sadminster]

Well I'm now completely hacked off with the whole thing I don't think it is possible to use it without training which they won't pay for & we can't afford (maybe the ABA consultant will be able to help). We had another go, but it is such an artificial situation I don't see how it will help him tbh & I feel that the SALTs have just suggested it for the sake of suggesting something.

When I put the card in front of him surely that's initiating the communication - it's basically the offer of a biscuit. By handing over the card has he actually learnt to request - it isn't spontaneous? I don't think I understand how it is supposed to work.

He & dd1 managed get hold of the biscuits & scoffed the lot anyway eye roll

[cyberseraphim]

I personally am not a huge fan of PECS but I did find this account very positive and interesting - just to balance out negativity

littlecottonrabbits.typepad.co.uk/my_weblog/2006/12/passionate_abou.html

But I do think the parent must be 120 % behind PECS and have support from trained experts as it is not the 'easy' thing it is marketed as being - imo anyway.