Can I please ask your opinions about dd2 please?

[siblingrivalry]

Hi
I am sitting here, going in circles, so thought I would ask the experts on this board what you think. Please feel free to tell me I am being over-cautious

DD1 has AS and we always knew that she had difficulties in some areas.
Then dd2 was born and we were totally staggered at the differnces between them as babies and toddlers.DD1 was very quiet and introverted, dd2 was noisy and 'spirited'

However, over the past few months we are becoming really concerned about dd2's behaviour and about the 'patterns' we have noticed which are similar to dd1's.
Maybe she is copying dd1,I don't know, but it has been noticable enough to worry me.
Could I list the areas of concern, please, to see if you think I am going mad?! DD2 is 4.9.

DD2 plays with little figures and completely goes into a world of her own. When we ask her to tidy up, she screams and refuses. She has to take photos of the arrangement of toys before she will move them.She doesn't want to disturb the arrangement, as she says she won't be able to do it the same next time.
She also has to take photos of plates of food/sweets etc.

She keeps asking me to make her exactly the same meal/drink, the same way, the next day/week etc.Ditto outfits she wears.

She refuses to go upstairs on her own and will only go to the toilet if I sit on the top stair.

She hasn't outgrown the tantrum stage and has at least 2 or 3 a day, over the smallest thing. She doesn't respond at all to warnings or to the threat of leaving the room. If I put her out of the room, she kicks and thumps the door and screams.
Restaurants and cafes are nightmares -she will have tantrums wherever and whenever and they are LOUD.

She asks incessant questions, over and over, and will keep on and on and on -she never tires of it. Her constant talking and questions have actually driven me to tears on many occassions. She will not wait for even a second for attention.I love her desperately, but I actually fear for my mental health because of the non-stop questions.

She is an extremely picky eater and has a very limited diet -she has the same thing for breakfast every morning.

She has a very acute sense of smell.

Her talking is still not on par with her peers. She has grommets,as we were concerned her poor hearing was affecting her speech, but people often still struggle to understand her much of the time.

She is very noisy and 'in your face'

However, she is really sweet and often cuddly and is popular at pre-school. They have no problems with her -she is quiet there

She is really bright and keen to learn -there are no indicators of learning difficulties.

So, maybe she is just a 'challenging' NT child? It's just that family and friends will often ask me who she takes after
and ask me how I cope with her.
Despite our best efforts at modifying her behaviour, she still seems to be young for her age. She seems to be wilfully defiant, for want of a better phrase and I am really, really struggling with her.

Can I just say, she gets 1:1 attention from me and dh and lots of positive praise, so I would hope that she isn't attention seeking.

What do you think?
Thanks very much.

[Marne]

Hi, i have 2 dd's, dd1 has AS and we also thought dd2 was fine as she was nothing like her sister, when she was 2 our GP picked up that dd2 was a little different than most 2 year olds, she was refered to a pead and we are now waiting for a DX of ASD/HFA.

Both of my dd's pick up on each others traits and copy each other (dd2 holds her ears a lot and now dd1 has started to do this).

The traits you describe do sound like AS/ASD, maybe its best to get a referal from your GP.

[siblingrivalry]

Thanks for replying, Marne. We were also lulled into a false sense of security because dd2 was different to dd1. I think I might look into things a bit.
It's actually now more about how hard we are finding it to deal with her.

Would it make sense if I said that she has no concept of when 'enough is enough'? She sort of goes way beyond the point where most kids would think the hard pushed their luck.

[mamabell]

Hi,

Are these the type of things your DD1 does or is it different behaviour? It could be attention seeking behaviour if she sees how you react to DD1?

Even though you give her 1:1 attention, if your life is anything like mine, then she will still be getting less attention than your DD1. My DD is fantastic and very patient but my DS (who is 5 and recently diagnosed with AS) does demand more time and attention.

Comparing your DD2 - My DS is also very bright and has no learning difficulties and when in a good mood is very cuddly and sweet but he displays many similar traits to those you describe above. In particular we have big problems with the defiance and refusal (despite consequences) to comply.

Stay strong - it sounds like you are doing the right sort of things with positive praise and making sure she is getting some time with you and dh

As she is approaching the time to go to school, it may be sensible to try and get a referral.

[siblingrivalry]

Thanks mamabell - and you just described dd2!

"In particular we have big problems with the defiance and refusal (despite consequences) to comply." That articulates our problem.

Some of the behaviours are the same as dd1 (photographing things/ wanting things to stay the same)However, dd1 is not at all defiant.

DD2 also does some 'inappropriate' things, which I'm not sure whether to put down to 4 year old behaviour.Eg, she keeps showing her bottom to the dog or deliberately shows her knickers in public.

Can I ask what your ds is like at school please?

[mamabell]

I don't want you to worry as my story will be very different from others experience, but school has been a nightmare.

He had problems from the start - he found it difficult to follow the social norms of school.

The school have tried to get him to comply to the expected rules of the school to such an extent that he went into complete meltdown this term and ended up getting excluded from school 4 times (we have now had to move him to another school as his first school "couldn't cope").

We have also had the worst time at home ever with his behaviour this term - permanently wired ready to explode at the smallest thing - I think this behaviour is stress related and hope that as his new school are willing to adopt a more flexible approach, it will lower his stress levels.

We have seen some inappropriate behaviour - like showing his bottom - but I think this was something learned from his older siblings - who did it once as a joke and as my DS doesn't know when to stop - he picked it up and carried it on! I just keep reminding him that it is inappropriate and hope that he will stop at some point. I have seen plenty of other normal children doing inappropriate stuff so I wouldn't worry too much about that as she is still young.

Chances are your DD won't have the same issues at school but if she does have issues you want to make sure that the right strategies are put in place - I think that a lot of my DS's problems were because he wasn't diagnosed until easter, so the strategies put in place were not necessarily the best for a child with ASD.

[siblingrivalry]

Oh, sorry your ds had a bad time at school. I actually ended taking dd1 out of school and home educating her - there was zero support there.She's about to start at a new school, in September.

DD2 is fine at pre-school, but then so was dd1. Her problems didn't really become evident til reception. DD2 is already saying she isn't going to school and that it's boring

I just don't know -it's so tricky. There are a couple of family members who have commented when dd2 notices smells that none of us can smell. Kind of deja vu?
She's a kind of 'class clown' in that she performs to an audience by being silly or cheeky. Again, could be an ASD trait, or attention seeking.

She's a gorgeous child, though -I don't want to paint her as a horror!
I think my instinct is that her behaviour isn't getting any better, no matter what we try- and that isn't good

Thanks for your advice.

[mamabell]

No problem sibling rivalry. Parents instinct is usually right

She does sound very similar to my DS!

My DS says school is boring too. He was also the class clown and started several trends through the nursery and school - for a while at nursery the children used to come in take off their shoes and socks and wear then on their hands courtesy of my DS!

I went to a friends house once and his first comment was that the house smelled horrible! Luckily my friend wasn't bothered at all but I was very embarrassed! He often makes inappropriate comments like that.

Keep us posted on how you get on with your DD - we may be able to trade ideas once she starts school

[siblingrivalry]

Will do, mamabell -thanks very much.
This is a minefield, isn't it? My dh also probably has AS, so I'm completely outnumbered!!

[mamabell]

Funny you should say that - DH and I have discussed whether he may also have AS - lots of similarities - doesn't show his bum in public though! On a positive note - if DH does have AS, it has helped him to be very successful at work so there is some hope for our little ones

[Widemouthfrog]

Sorry, late to this thread as I have not been posting lately. Sibling we are in much the same situation with DS2. he is so different to DS1 that we said he has to be NT, but as he is developing, his behaviour, tantrums, and need to control EVERYTHING is tipping us over the edge. He also constantly repeats questions until I am driven crazy! He is in your face at home, yet much more subdued within preschool. His diet is appalling and he eats very little, and I struggle to control or modify his behaviour.
We have just been referred to the paed, and he is being assessed at the CDC for ASD early next year. I was suprised but relieved at how seriously they are taking my concerns, as I was convince I was going to be told he was reacting to his older brother. he is a very bright and switched on little boy, but he is so much more work than any other 3 year old I know.

I don't know if DS2 is ASD or ADHD or anything else yet, but I know he is being observed and that in itself is enough for now. I have no regrets that we are persuing assessment with a view to possible diagnosis. Speaking with the paed has reassured me that I am not going mad .

HTH.

[siblingrivalry]

Hi WMF, that really does help, thankyou. Your ds sounds exactly the same as dd2.In fact, I could have written exactly what you did!

I am going to put the wheels in motion, I think, because dd1 really started to stuggle when she started school.

Thanks again. I'm really glad that your concerns are being taken seriously.

[trace2]

wow was going to ask more of same question ds as AS dd 2 has health problems but we are noticing things like flaps but she to sociable good eye contact and so on but when on holiday a lady asked if dd was autistic not dd i was a little shocked so we to waiting to see what happens!

[Widemouthfrog]

Sibling, DS1 struggled when he started school too, and I don't want to see it happen again with DS2. In a strange here we go again way, I feel quiite calm about making this journey with DS2, because I have learned so much from mumsnet .

Trace, both my Ds make eye contact and can be sociable - DS1 is very clearly autistic though

Good luck to both of you.

[trace2]

Widemouthfrog we see ds pead every 4 weeks not with him just me and his dad she as been fantastic, but dd is only two years and been told she as verbal dyspepsia she as lots of heath issues and she points lots where ds dont or never did point . and our ds pead always asks if we got a dx for dd yet. so like i said we will see

[siblingrivalry]

WMF, funnily enough I don't feel nearly as worried this time around. It's different when you have the t-shirt, isn't it?

Trace, hope you manage to get the support you need with your dd. We also think it's dd2 who appears to have 'issues' eg tantrums in public and we have said that anyone would think she was the one on the spectrum. Hindsight, eh?!

Mumslife, thanks for posting. It helps to here about the other side of AS, as dd1 rarely has tantrums and is driven by following rules.

We are noticing little obsessions starting with dd2 and they set off the alarm bells.