Possible AS and retaliating when teased

[debs40]

Hi

Looking for some advice/shared experiences.

My DS is 6 and has possible AS ? undergoing assessment at the moment.

He is a quiet and good tempered boy but sensory problems (food/tactile/smell) are his main issue with some hypotonia/ hypermobility/coordination issues.

Today, his teacher had a chat with me after school as he had been given a ?red card? for grabbing another boys? lip in class when he was teasing him. The boy?s lip was scratched. The other boys is very bouncy and often teases DS who can?t stand it.

DS never gets into trouble at this school but he did a bit when he was in his reception year at another school when he was always being told not to retaliate when hit by others!

DS has told me a couple of times recently that people have pushed him over or sat on him at playtime and he hasn?t had the strength to push them off so has lashed out rather than telling the teacher.

He just doesn?t seem to know how to deal with this sort of thing. To disengage and tell the teacher. I explained this to his teacher who was really good and said she could see what I meant and that she agreed he didn?t seem to have the skills to deal with it.

Would you say this is part of possible AS? How would you deal with it? He was definitely out of order today as no one had hit him. It was silly teasing but I have told him about retaliating and about not getting involved but he seems to hit back when others t him and then he gets told off. He never stands up for himself when he?s told off either

[bunnyrabbit]

Debs,
Not sure if it is but DS1 (ASD) who is 6 in September does this too. He recently punched one of his best friends in out of school club becuase he wouldn't give him a high five.

He basically could not understand that this boy did not want to do what DS1 wanted him to do so he lashed out.

We have spent ages teaching him how to deal with someone hitting him. We found that teaching him to say out loud that it's naughty to hit people, and tell a teacher, works really well for him. I think it's the pattern/ritual of having something set to say.

.... but him hitting first was a new one on us too.

We had a long chat about why he hit out and what he was feeling at the time, and about hurting people and the 'appropriate way to behave' and that people will not play with him if he hurts them. We also discussed that I couldn't take him anywhere or have friends over if he was going to hurt people. It seems to have worked (fingers crossed) so far.

But DS1 is very verbal. He will argue black is white if you let him so giving him things to say makes all the difference and keeps him in control which I think is his major problem.

Not sure if this helps or not..

BR

[TheFool]

Not much help, but this bit stood out for me: He was definitely out of order today as no one had hit him.

From my view of the situation, the other child was teasing him, and he was probably grabbing his mouth to stop him talking iyswim. Making him stop rather than it being an attack.

[bubblagirl]

my ds is hfa and went through this phase if he didnt like what you were saying rather than knowing hot to stop you from talking e would grab your mouth or put his hand over your mouth

its not there fault his being teased and doesn't know how to stop unless physically stopping

to be honest i would be having a word with teacher about child who was doing the teasing what support is in place for ds to help him react appropriately what action is in place to stop teasing

[Marne]

I agree with TheFool, in your DS's eyes it wasn't out of order, the other child was teasing him, he wanted him to stop so went for the mouth (which the nasty words were coming out of).

My dd1 (AS) always reacts by screaming or crying which usually alerts a teacher.

There are also a lot of NT that will hit out/react so it may not be an AS thing as such.

[debs40]

Thanks guys

He does worry me. He hasn't got into trouble for quite a while but he has mentioned a couple of incidents recently from which I can see he was at a loss as to how to deal with them.

He just seems vulnerable and naive. The other lad was actually laughing that he had got DS into trouble and took his mum in so the teacher could explain. As he went in he was cheering with arms in the air! I know he's only 6 but he is a little horror - red cards galore!

Anyway, I worry about DS just copying people and hitting because they hit (it happened in reception) and then always being the one to get the blame.

I think his teacher is wise to it but I think, without any dx or any OT/SALT/CAMHS having started, we are all just guessing what is NT and what is not

[magso]

Hi Debs! Shared experience yes! -Ds also hurt a child in reception by trying to close his mouth (with the zip it up motion the teacher used). It seems he had misunderstood a social situation ( another child told me what had happened - and ds had very vivid 'action replay' nightmares) and upset his classmate who shouted 'naughty words'at him. I think he did not realise it would hurt. When I asked him what he had done he showed me on his own mouth and scratched himself! I think he went into overload in a confusing situation (he had little language so would not have been able to ask the child the stop shouting)- and tried to stop the teasing by stopping the naughty words escaping! Ds does have autism but I too would wonder if an NT child could react this way when under extreme duress.
Ds is not able to stand up for himself verbally either - even once he could talk! It is good that you have allerted the teacher to your childs need for support.

[debs40]

Thanks for this. I suppose the best thing is just to keep on repeating to him precisely what he should do (rather than vaguely just 'tell the teacher').I asked him what telling the teacher meant if he was being teased again (it was just a case of someone being silly about his name) and he was seriously at a loss to explain what he would do!

[debs40]

Oh, the other thing is that his behaviour has been awful and distressed tonight. He even lashed out ar DH when he got home from work. He seemed so upset and I think it's the red card. It must have embarrassed him as it was in class and everyone else knew about it. It means he misses some of his 'golden time' on Friday which he loves.

Am I overreacting? I feel quite upset for him now. I just think that the limitations on his social skills caused this as most children would have been able to rise above it. Am I being overprotective?

[bunnyrabbit]

IMHO, Yes and no. I know exactly how you feel and I feel the same way as you, and would if DS1 was NT to be honest. We are after all mummys and nature intended for us to protect our children.

I think you hit the nail on the head, as did the OPs, concerning him not knowing what to do. In DS1's case, although obviously each child is differnt, it seems he has all this pent up frustration and it has to come out. In your DS's case he needs to stop the thing he doesn't like (the other boy talking) the only way he knows how.

By teaching him what to do if he gets in that situation (in our case say loudly " no you must not do xyz that is naughty" and telling a teacher) you are teaching him how to deal with it, somthing most other children know instinctively. Although hitting is a very emotive subject, it's just the same as any other really in that our LOs need to be taught the correct way to behave eg. if you spill your drink, pick the cup up and tell someone. If someone provokes you or hits you then .. etc etc.

I agree with OPs that there was provocation there, so your DS is behaving as a lot of 6 year old would, but these situations can be difficult to fathom for a child that can't unravel the dos and don'ts of when it's appropriate to retaliate. IMHO best to teach them to never respond physically.

BR

[bubblagirl]

i know it sounds mean but worked with ds his only 4 but got picked on by one little boy all the time hit hair pulled etc because he was easy target just stood and let boy do it

at home i sat him down and said if people push or hit put your arm out say stop and go tell someone said name of teacher or myself

anyway we role played i would gently push him and say what do you do he'd stand there so i got him to do it to me so i put my hand out said stop and pretended to tell teacher we did this every day until one day he actually did it

now his very quick to put his hand out to keep distance and say stop its all learnt behaviour same as the mouth he's grab my mouth if he didnt like what id say so had to teach him again to keep distance keep hands away and just walk away

lots of praise at home too for all the times he was being told off at pre school he'd copy alot of behaviour and be the one to be told off for it i eventually went in as witnessed a situation and he was the only one told off so i said thats confusing to him why is it ok for said child to do it and not him thats upsetting him as other child ias still doing it and his been in trouble for it

so then they took zero tolerance and made sure ds could see it wasn't acceptable by either child

you need to speak to teacher and say as much as you respect why the punishment was set out he needs to see the other child be in trouble for teasing so he can see neither action is right other wise its frustrating for him to think its ok to be teased but not to stick up for yourself

and when he gets home make it as pleasant as you can from the frustrations of the day ask teacher if things can be earnt back to help him it gets taken away for wrong behaviour but if he goes to teacher with his worries instead of lashing out it can be earnt back maybe this might help him in approaching the teachers independantly

[bubblagirl]

my ds responds very well with the reward at the end approach they do this at pre school if he does something independently or as independent as he can his very prompt dependant he gets to choose reward task he loves this and is more willing to try

[bunnyrabbit]

Well said Bubblagirl. Totally agree.

And we have a sticker chart which once full can earn all manner of wonderous things!!

[bunnyrabbit]

And they give stickers out at school.

[debs40]

Hi

Thanks for these suggestions. They are really helpful.

We did the role play bit this morning but he always gets so worried if you even raise the fact he has done something wrong. He hates going back over it.

His behaviour has actually been really good so far but this sort of problem did happen before.

I can tell him/encourage him etc as much as I can but every time he is in another situation like this, he seems to have the same problem in knowing how to respond.

The boy was only saying his name wrong so it was probably a bit of fun. But I know most kids don't like to be teased like this anyway. I'm sure the teacher said something to him too.

I will keep on re-emphasising the correct way to respond and I will start a new sticker chart! Thanks again

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

"The boy was only saying his name wrong so it was probably a bit of fun"

Saying his name wrong eh?. I would beg to differ; thats a deliberate action to my mind on that kid's part. Its bullying by any other name; this child knows very well how to say your son's name properly. Some children take great delight in picking on those who are in any way "different" to them; they're certainly not too young to be nasty. Your son is being picked on by some children who are seemingly taking pleasure in being horrid to him and the school should be taking firm steps to ensure that your son can feel he can tell a teacher. He needs to be able to tell, he is not confident enough to do so.

I would also be seriously considering getting a Statement in place for your son from the LEA asap. He may well find things very difficult the further he goes through the school system and without a statement no support is legally binding.

[bubblagirl]

but to us that may seem so minor but to them there so literal my name is so and so if someone keeps saying it wrong thats going to become frustrating i would get annoyed eventually

there needs to be strategies within the class to help him manage his needs he obviously doesn't have a statement as yet but there is a scheme at the school they can give extra funding to help within the class can you ask about this so he has someone there to model behaviour and to help him

its got to be so frustrating for him the extra help could help relieve a lot of stress and work towards making him more independent and understanding actions

[debs40]

Thanks so much. I know you're right but it's so hard to know what to do when he hasn't even been properly assessed. I rang around SALT and OT this morning and it is likely to be October before he is seen by anyone in either department.

In the meantime, I don't know where I stand in getting extra help but we do, fortunately, have parents evening on Monday with both his teachers (one of whom is SENCO and deputy head) so I can raise all this with them.

I feel that I'm working on my hunches with this (although this echoed by his teacher)

[bubblagirl]

read here

[magso]

I would think having your name said wrongly would upset a child on the spectrum more than an nt child with natural flexibility. Ds classmates (all with ld and asd) find having their name said incorrectly very upsetting. Ds is going through a phase of doing this (deliberatly using another childs surname) because he thinks it is funny and it is disciplined in the same way as any other offensive behaviour. The name distorting child needs to know that it is offensive behaviour(at least to some classmates) and should be given targets to avoid it. Its possible the other child lacks empathy and sees only the silly side not the hurt it causes!

[debs40]

Thanks bubblagirl. I have had a quick look but am I right in thinking that the need for extra help is based on educational need? He is doing ok academically so are the school likely to see a need?

[bubblagirl]

if his struggling with socialising and appropriate behaviour they can set IEP up in place to help him with these targets

[debs40]

Thanks bubblagirl. Much appreciated.I will talk to his teachers about this on Monday.

I sent today's teacher (he has a split class - 1 teacher Mon to Wed and the other Thurs/Fri) an email this morning explaining how distressed DS was about it all and how hard it was for him to respond appropriately sometimes. I also said that he found teasing hard to cope with.

I have asked him to help with this.

[debs40]

Can I just ask whether an IEP requires funding out of the pot you spoke of?

[bubblagirl]

no i think any raised concerns they can set up IEP to work on im sure you don't need funding for that its just targets to work on within the class for him