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Here some suggested organisations that offer expert advice on SN.

What do people think?

(20 Posts)
mumslife Mon 25-Aug-08 21:30:28

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

daisy5678 Mon 25-Aug-08 21:40:36

Some of it sounds similar to my son (HFA) but some of it doesn't! I think that children on the autistic spectrum are all so different that you could get ten billion different responses, none of which would help you!

Here is the autism criteria:

I) A total of six (or more) items from (A), (B), and (C), with at least two from (A), and one each from (B) and (C)

(A) qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:

1. marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body posture, and gestures to regulate social interaction
2. failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level
3. a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests, or achievements with other people, (e.g., by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people)
4. lack of social or emotional reciprocity ( note: in the description, it gives the following as examples: not actively participating in simple social play or games, preferring solitary activities, or involving others in activities only as tools or "mechanical" aids )

(B) qualitative impairments in communication as manifested by at least one of the following:
1. delay in, or total lack of, the development of spoken language (not accompanied by an attempt to compensate through alternative modes of communication such as gesture or mime)
2. in individuals with adequate speech, marked impairment in the ability to initiate or sustain a conversation with others
3. stereotyped and repetitive use of language or idiosyncratic language
4. lack of varied, spontaneous make-believe play or social imitative play appropriate to developmental level

(C) restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests and activities, as manifested by at least two of the following:
1. encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus
2. apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals
3. stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements)
4. persistent preoccupation with parts of objects

(II) Delays or abnormal functioning in at least one of the following areas, with onset prior to age 3 years:
(A) social interaction
(B) language as used in social communication
(C) symbolic or imaginative play

(III) The disturbance is not better accounted for by Rett's Disorder or Childhood Disintegrative Disorder

and here is the Asperger's criteria:

DIAGNOSTIC FEATURES
The essential features of Asperger's Disorder are:
Criterion A. Severe and sustained impairment in social interaction
Criterion B. The development of restricted, repetitive patterns of
behaviour, interests, and activities
Criterion C. The disturbance must cause clinically significant impairment
in social, occupational, or other important areas of
functioning.
Criterion D. In contrast to Autistic Disorder, there are no clinically
significant delays in language (eg: single words are used
by age 2 years, communicative phrases are used by age 3
years).
Criterion E. There are no clinically significant delays in cognitive
development or in the development of age-appropriate
self-help skills, adaptive behaviour (other than in social
interaction), and curiosity about the environment in
childhood.
Criterion F. The diagnosis is not given if the criteria are met
for any other specific Pervasive Developmental Disorder or
for Schizophrenia.

ASSOCIATED FEATURES AND DISORDERS
Asperger's Disorder is sometimes observed in association with general medical conditions. Various nonspecific neurological symptoms or signs may be noted. Motor milestones may be delayed and motor clumsiness is often observed.

PREVALENCE
Information on the prevalence of Asperger's Disorder is limited, but it appears to be more common in males.

COURSE
Asperger's Disorder appears to have a somewhat later onset than Autistic Disorder, or at least to be recognised somewhat later. Motor delays or motor clumsiness may be noted in the preschool period. Difficulties in social interaction may become more apparent in the context of school. It is during this time that particular idiosyncratic or circumscribed interests (eg: a fascination with train schedules) may appear or be recognised as such. As adults, individuals with the condition may have problems with empathy and modulation of social interaction. This disorder apparently follows a continuous course and, in the vast majority of cases, the duration is lifelong.

FAMILIAL PATTERN
Although the available data are limited, there appears to be an increased frequency of Asperger's Disorder among family members of individuals who have the disorder.

DIFFERENTIAL DIAGNOSIS
Asperger's Disorder is not diagnosed if criteria are met for another Pervasive Developmental Disorders or for Schizophrenia. Asperger's Disorder must also be distinguished from Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder and Schizoid Personality Disorder. Asperger's Disorder and Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder share repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behaviour. In contrast to Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, Asperger's Disorder is characterised by a qualitative impairment in social interaction and a more restricted pattern of interests and activities. In contrast to Schizoid Personality Disorder, Asperger's Disorder is characterised by stereotyped behaviours and interests and by more severely impaired social interaction.

DIAGNOSTIC CRITERIA FOR ASPERGER'S DISORDER (DSM IV)

A. Qualitative impairment in social interaction,
as manifested by at least two of the following:

1) marked impairment in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviours such
as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body postures, and gestures
to regulate social interaction;

2) failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental
level;

3) a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests or
achievments with other people (eg: by a lack of showing, bringing,
or pointing out objects of interest to other people);

4) lack of social or emotional reciprocity.

B. Restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behaviour, interests,
and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:

1) encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and
restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity
or focus;

2) apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines
or rituals;

3) stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (eg: hand or finger
flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements);

4) persistent preoccupation with parts of objects

C. The disturbance causes clinically significant impairment in social,
occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

D. There is no clinically significant general delay in language
(eg: single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by
age 3 years).

E. There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in
the development of age-appropriate self-help skills, adaptive behaviour
(other than social interaction), and curiosity about the environment in
childhood.

F. Criteria are not met for another specific Pervasive Developmental
Disorder, or Schizophrenia.

DIAGNOSTIC CRITERIA FOR ASPERGER'S DISORDER (GILLBERG, 1991)

A. Severe impairment in reciprocal social interaction as manifested by at
least two of the following four:

1. Inability to interact with peers.

2. Lack of desire to interact with peers.

3. Lack of appreciation of social cues.

4. Socially and emotionally inappropriate behaviour.

B. All-absorbing narrow interest, as manifested by at least one of the
following three:

1. Exclusion of other activities.

2. Repetitive adherence.

3. More rote than meaning.

C. Speech and language problems, as manifested by at least three of the
following five:

1. Delayed development of language.

2. Superficially perfect expressive language.

3. Formal, pedantic language.

4. Odd prosody, peculiar voice characteristics.

5. Impairment of comprehension, including misinterpretations of
literal/implied meanings.

D. Non-verbal communication problems, as manifested by at least
one of the following five:

1. Limited use of gestures.

2. Clumsy/gauche body language.

3. Limited facial expression.

4. Inappropriate expression.

5. Peculiar, stiff gaze.

E. Motor clumsiness, as documented by poor performance on
neurodevelopmental examination.

DIAGNOSTIC CRITERIA FOR ASPERGER'S DISORDER (SZATMARI, ET AL. 1989)

A. Solitary, as manifested by at least two of the following four:

1. No close friends.

2. Avoids others.

3. No interest in making friends.

4. A loner.

B. Impaired social interaction, as manifested by at least one of the
following five:

1. Approaches others only to have own needs met.

2. A clumsy social approach.

3. One-sided responses to peers.

4. Difficulty sensing feelings of others.

5. Detached from feelings of others.

C. Impaired non-verbal communication, as manifested by at least one
of the following seven:

1. Limited facial expression.

2. Unable to read emotion from facial expressions of child.

3. Unable to give messages with eyes.

4. Does not look at others.

5. Does not use hands to express oneself.

6. Gestures are large and clumsy.

7. Comes too close to others.

D. Odd speech, as manifested by at least two of the following six:

1. abnormalities in inflection.

2. talks too much.

3. talks too little.

4. lack of cohesion to conversation.

5. idiosyncratic use of words.

6. repetitive patterns of speech.

E. Does not meet criteria for Autistic Disorder.

DIAGNOSTIC CRITERIA FOR ASPERGER'S DISORDER (ICD-10, WHO, 1992)

A. A lack of any clinically significant general delay in language or
cognitive development. Diagnosis requires that single words should have
developed by two years of age and that communicative phrases be used by
three years of age or earlier. Self-help skills, adaptive behaviour and
curiosity about the environment during the first three years should be at a
level consistent with normal intellectual development. Motor milestones may
be somewhat delayed and motor clumsiness is usual (although not a necessary
feature).

B. Qualitative impairment in reciprocal social interaction.
(Criteria as for autism, see above).

C. Restricted, repetitive, and stereotyped patterns of behaviour,
interests and activities. (Criteria as for autism, see above).


Goodness, what a long post!

If you've looked at that and still feel worried, get him in the system ASAP. Ask your GP for a referral to CAMHS/ child development paediatrician.

Talk to the school. Ask what they think. Ask for an Educational Psychologist assessment.

Speaking as someone who refused to believe that there was anything wrong with my son for too long, I would be over-cautious and get it checked out, even if you're wrong. You don't lose anything. Some of it sounds very, very normal, but trust your instincts if you think something is wrong, check it out. Good luck.

mumslife Mon 25-Aug-08 21:50:54

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

periselene Mon 25-Aug-08 22:08:23

Hi mumslife, I don't know if your boy's got asperger's or not either, but I do know that you don't need to be worried about not having as much to put up with as some other people..... you have a lot on your plate, and it doesn't matter if it's more or less than me - you still struggle sometimes and worry a lot + that's just true, and perfectly valid.
I hope you get a diagnosis or a definite all clear. You definitely have a sensitive and complicated child though, whether he's an Aspie or not. Good luck, and have some of these too ((()))!
xxPeri

mumslife Mon 25-Aug-08 22:18:21

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

twocutedarlings Mon 25-Aug-08 22:27:17

Hi Mumlife,

Bit of what you have writen do sound very AS, but other bits dont IYKWIM. Like givemesleep says our children are all so differant grin but i can see lots of what you have writen about your DS in my DD who has AS.

I was convinced when we had her assessment done that she was boarderline or obviously very mild hmm but the consultant paed said within a couple of hours of meeting her that she was on spectrum shock.

coppertop Mon 25-Aug-08 22:31:30

There are some similarities to my two with ASD but not everything. Obviously every child is different though.

Ds1 (8) is very big on rules but will also apply them to himself and not just other people. I don't think he could tell a convincing lie if his life depended on it. If anything he can be too honest.

The endless talking about a particular game is also familiar, only ds1 doesn't seem to notice or care whether anyone is actually listening.

There are some adults he prefers to others but generally he would probably avoid 1:1 help/contact if possible. He prefers to have his independence.

His 5yr-old brother is very different. His lack of awareness of danger and his knowledge of programmes that his brother watches means that he seems to be fairly popular at school. Again he doesn't do lying all that well. The nearest he gets to it is saying "Mr Nobody did it" if he's done something he shouldn't have.

Ds2 has a very limited diet, although it's slowly improving. Both boys have problems with particular textures and tastes of food.

Both boys also have scarily good memories and are bright.

The imaginary play issue can be a tricky area to judge. When they were younger neither boy really bothered with it. They could (with varying degrees of success) go through the motions if taught but would never expand on what they were shown. They now play games with their action figures together. Ds1 has even designed planets for them with pretty much every detail you could think of.

Does the school have any concerns about him?

mumslife Mon 25-Aug-08 22:33:52

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

coppertop Mon 25-Aug-08 22:34:25

I cross-posted with your later post. This bit could easily have been written about my ds1:

"Yes he is a sensitive and complicated little boy very bright in lots of areas but struggles so in others.Academically he is way ahead but emotionally he is i suppose like a two or three year old."

mumslife Mon 25-Aug-08 22:40:26

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mumslife Mon 25-Aug-08 22:43:30

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

twocutedarlings Wed 27-Aug-08 08:20:32

Mumslife

DD is almost 6, she was diagnosed just before her 5 birthday.

School had been a battle for us tbh. Last september she started out at out local M/S primary school but it became obvious very early on that it wasnt the right eviroment for her. In April we moved he to another school which is still M/S but it has a SN unit. She is now doing extremeley well!! she still needs 1 to 1 support for most of her day, which thankfully her fantastic school provide her with as and whe she needs it.

Apparently it is much more difficult to diagnose in girls, but thankfully for us this wasnt the case. DD consultant is a leading specialist, so this obviously helped.

mumslife Wed 27-Aug-08 08:38:19

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AttilaTheMeerkat Wed 27-Aug-08 09:13:59

Hi Mumslife,

Re your comment:-
"Very well behaved at school so far not any temper tantrums just when he comes out and at home"

This unfortunately may well be because he is just about coping with school and internalises any frustrations he has. His nearest and dearest (i.e you) therefore often feel the full force of such often on school closing time. I note that he is going into Y2 next week; this may be also when problems with school can become more apparant.

I think you are right to be concerned; best to get your DS observed now by someone in a professional capacity like a Developmental Paediatrician at a child development centre. Your GP can refer you to such a person. Better to do this now than in say a year's time.

You are your child's best - and only - advocate.

mumslife Wed 27-Aug-08 10:20:58

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PussinWellies Wed 27-Aug-08 10:39:11

Hi Mumslife,
Asperger's doesn't rule out friendships. My son -- with undisputed Asperger's -- has several really good friends. In fact his leaving report from his first school (which made me well up!) said 'XX has a small but constant group of friends, and I have never known there to be a dispute between them.'

I wish I could say the same about his siblings...

I suppose the question is, does he seem to act on a par with his friends, if you see what I mean? Looking at them as a lump, is it always obvious from miles away which is your son? Do their roles in the group stay pretty fixed? How does he get on with unfamiliar children in playgrounds? (None of this is diagnostic, btw - I'm just thinking back to when my boy was sixish.)

Hope you get some useful answers, though sometimes 'It's just how he is' is the best anyone can do!

AttilaTheMeerkat Wed 27-Aug-08 11:03:47

"The thing that doesn't seem to fit is he appears to have plenty of friends at school and the teachers say he is fine regarding this.

He has a very experienced teacher in year two so we will see, I may mention it to her and see if she feels there is any cause for concern".

Hi Mumslife,

Re your above comments I'd have a chat with her about your DS once he has been in his class for say six weeks.

Don't just take this teacher's word for it if she says there are no problems - in my wider experience many teachers are not in any position to recognise ASD in its many forms let alone act. What I'm saying is that in a class of say 30 he could become lost amongst the others; year 2 is also when the ante is upped both socially and academically.

I would seriously consider him being assessed by a dev paed now; certainly don't wait till Juniors.

Have you looked at the National Autistic Society's website?.

Good luck

Attila x

allytjd Wed 27-Aug-08 11:56:12

Mumslife , your son sounds very like my oldest boy who is ten. He has always been difficult to handle at times(although very well-behaved at school), but loving with it. He is extremely lound, has bad tantrums (not often now), can be very inflexible, is shy, has bad vertigo, has an external locus of control(means blames others for any mishap) and various other quirks ie. lines toy soldiers up and freaks if they are moved. To be honest, although I ALWAYS felt that something was not quite right, I wouldn't have said Aspergers because I had a cliched idea of what AS was like, until DS2 was unnofficially DXed with AS by the SALT and the ED-Phych. I read Tony Atwoods book and realised that ALL my menfolk (apart from DS3, although I'm not 100% about him anymore either!)have at least a few traits. If you combined the traits that DS1 and DS2 have you would have a "classic" case of AS (DS2 avoids eye contact and is a loner at school and also has sensory problems and repetitive movements but is reasonably flexible!). I tend to use the phrase Asperger type personality to describe my "sort of AS" men, also family humour calls it being Martian, a bit Martian, or enjoying holidays on Mars (that's me!).
That doesn't mean they don't have real problems, my DH and my boys have all had major problems with at least one aspect of daily life at one time, DS2 has had big struggles with school.
I regret not getting DS1 referred when he was younger, he is EXTREMELY resistant to any investigations now as he doesn't like any suggestion that he is like his "weird" brother. You are doing the right thing, so don't feel guilty, it will make a positive difference to your family.

allytjd Wed 27-Aug-08 12:11:46

Have any of you tried the infectious yawning thing? someone is researching the fact that apparently people on the spectrum don't yawn when they see other's yawning. I tried it at bed-time once and DS1 did yawn but DS2 didn't!

DS1 is also a whizz at computer games but his four year-old brother is better at sharing and taking turns.

DS1 has had the same group of friends since playgroup and they all get on well most of the time but when we went camping with some unfamiliar families this year he avoided playing with their kids (admittedly they were younger or girls).

Ds1 calls us liars if we change the way we say something when repeating a story or insruction, it makes DH very cross as it seems so cheeky, but he can't seem to help himself despite big rows about it!.

All my boys are more aggressive with each other than I would like. quick to thump if personal space is invaded but friends assure me that that is just boys!

mumslife Wed 27-Aug-08 14:56:36

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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