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Here some suggested organisations that offer expert advice on SN.

Do you think inclusion is working?

(94 Posts)
zzzzz Mon 29-Jun-15 22:19:20

The choice of ss seems frankly pathetic. The ms option often babysitting rather than teaching. I personally would like to see more specialist provision. Mine is ms primary atm

headinhands Mon 29-Jun-15 22:28:23

The drive for inclusion is evidence based having looked at the outcomes for children is it not? I work in early years and I LOVE inclusion. The dual placement children we have in our class bring so much to the setting and are valued and celebrated as much as the rest and quite rightly so!

headinhands Mon 29-Jun-15 22:32:09

Gah I don't mean that to sound in any way patronising. What I mean is that I think inclusion helps dismantle the taboo/ignorance surrounding special needs and goes a long way to improve the lives of everyone in society.

zzzzz Mon 29-Jun-15 22:34:02

Dual placement isn't really inclusion though is it? (asking for clarification not being snippy)

I expect everyone to be valued and celebrated, but that doesn't mean that ms is the best setting for children with very different needs.

headinhands Mon 29-Jun-15 22:38:44

Which brings us to the original point of it being evidence based. I just also happen to see it happening in real time in front of me.

headinhands Mon 29-Jun-15 22:41:07

By valued and celebrated I mean they are taken into account with the planning, not valued in a lip service way. But of course I can only go on my own setting although inclusion has a wealth of data showing the benefits.

Borka Mon 29-Jun-15 22:42:05

I don't want my DS to be educated in mainstream in order to counter other people's ignorance about disability, I want him to be educated in the setting where he will receive the best education.

zzzzz Mon 29-Jun-15 22:44:12

here here Borka

zzzzz Mon 29-Jun-15 22:45:12

I'm not sure what real evidence there is???

Surely it can't be a blanket for all disabilities and all provision?

ouryve Mon 29-Jun-15 22:50:18

It's great in primary for DS2 (as much as inclusion looks like inclusion for a child who needs a completely individualised education) but was a wash out for DS1. Sharing a room with 25 other people was only ever going to be far too much for him.

I've yet to see what the local generic SSs can offer DS2 in secondary but DS1's specialist provision is wonderful and, sadly, all too scarce.

ouryve Mon 29-Jun-15 22:53:57

And dual placement was suggested for DS1. Yep, make his life even harder with 2 sets of people and their expectations to deal with and yet more transitions in his day. And only being at each place part time would have done nothing to stop the SS from being crap and unsuitable and the MS school from simply being unsuitable. That's without considering the small matters of continuity and progression for an able (and easily bored and disaffected) child.

zzzzz Mon 29-Jun-15 22:55:41

Primary for us atm is very sweet. I've worked colossally hard to get ds to where he is and I feel so proud of him for managing. blush smile

BUT it is definitely NOT the best place for him to receive an academic education. He's loving it but learning could only really ever be at a snails pace in that environment......though I dream of being wrong

Ilikesweetpeas Mon 29-Jun-15 22:57:25

Can I ask why SS is pathetic? Not trying to pick a fight, I just wonder what is so wrong with it? Sorry to hear that you are not getting a good education for your son

ouryve Mon 29-Jun-15 22:57:43

Exactly that, Borka. DS2 is in local primary because he benefits from it. If he wasn't enjoying it in any way, I would not be keeping him there purely for the benefit of others nor for the sake of ideology.

Hedgyhoggy Mon 29-Jun-15 23:17:26

I was not impressed by our local generic special school. The variations in needs were just so great that my ds just wouldn't fit in. However, when the gap grows to the extent his whole school day will have to differentiated I think we will have to make the move to Ss (reluctantly). I wish there were specialist units here, or more specialist tutors, services, sports clubs, theatre groups (I'm not sure what) but something that means my very sociable little boy is not excluded from a society he is desperate to be part of (and has friends who don't want to be excluded from him) just because he is not at the same cognitive level of development. There is no easy answer especially when there is such variation of quality in provision and such differences within the label 'special needs'.

zzzzz Mon 29-Jun-15 23:21:47

I said "the choice of ss" was pathetic.

What's wrong with the choice?

There isn't enough of it, most of it isn't appropriate, and it all involves my already stretched child commuting for long distances before and after his already challenging day.

I would guess that the vast majority of children with sn receive a pitiful version of education in the UK.

Hedgyhoggy Mon 29-Jun-15 23:35:36

I agree with zzzzzz in that there just isn't the choice. How can you lump all sn children together whether needs are physical, social, mental, multiple, profound, moderate etc... Definitely a fault in the area that we live in anyway.

MairOldAlibi Tue 30-Jun-15 00:23:54

OP, from an early years perspective, some degree of inclusion is likely to benefit most dc with SEN, as well as their 'typical' peers. But not all

Case study of our family:
Dc1 (has SN): mainstream nursery - who instinctively differentiated so well that he made amazing progress and his significant disabilities were not properly apparent till 2y later.

Dc2 (No SN) at 'specially resourced' integrated playgroup- as one of the 'typical' dc. All the dc there did well.

Dc3: mainstream playgroup, some SN knowledge, didn't do great. Would've been much better with specialised provision, but it's closed

MairOldAlibi Tue 30-Jun-15 00:27:22

But in ofsted, says and budget obsessed 'big school', inclusion is very often ideology over substance.

You're welcome here providing you don't need/want/demand special favours, but we'll really need you to hide that pesky disability fit in

StarlightMcKenzee Tue 30-Jun-15 00:27:55

Inclusion works but it doesn't exist in reality.

Inclusion isn't about physical placement but educational and social equality. That can happen anywhere. It rarely happens in education in my experience however.

streakybacon Tue 30-Jun-15 06:48:50

You're welcome here providing you don't need/want/demand special favours, but we'll really need you to hide that pesky disability fit in

This was my experience too. Ds's first school refused to even consider any degree of differentiation for him: "He will be treated the same as any other child in the school, as they all are". hmm

True inclusion is just too big a task for severely over-stretched teachers, and that's the ones who want to. There are an awful lot who expect all children to be the same and don't make any effort to differentiate, as with this numpty above.

AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore Tue 30-Jun-15 06:52:59

It seems to be that "inclusion" means they will shoe horn a child into mainstream as it's cheaper, and as long as he gets by, they're okay. But I don't want ds2 to "get by", I want him to reach his potential, and the only way that is going to happen is in a SS environment. Ideally, we wouldn't have to fight so hard to get them there. I'm fully prepared to have to HE him if he cannot be placed in the SS, as he clearly was not coping in MS.

Rather than "inclusion", I'd like to see "choice" and "parental input valued, respected, and listened to". Not likely to happen. hmm

PandasRock Tue 30-Jun-15 06:59:39

Inclusion is more than physical presence and social tolerance/acceptance.

My dd2's school aren't managing thir inclusion well, and she is an extremely high functioning Aspie. To them it would appear to mean acceptance in their space, rather than any adjustment at all (reasonable or otherwise). I don't think I've seen a single instance of school initiated adjustment in 5 years of her being at the school.

With dd1, given her severe needs, inclusion meant being accepted physically, and appreciated socially (it was so good for the other children to learn how to accept a child with SN; except it wasn't, because none of them were actually taught to respect her - she ended up treated as a sort of class pet: lead around and patted by all and sundry rather than treated as an individual (who didn't actually like physicL proximity but was unable to show that enough to get her wants taken into consideration), and the expectation placed on her was always that she fit in rather than the other way round). Mind you, we also had some shocking experiences of so-called specialised placements, where the only person expected to be flexible was the severely autistic one hmm

Frusso Tue 30-Jun-15 07:01:27

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

zzzzz Tue 30-Jun-15 07:37:32

Meeting someone's needs must be inclusion, surely?

Inclusion works for my able nt ms children but them selection does too smile.

Has it worked so far for my children with sn? On some levels, yes. One is doing all I would hope for, the other not so much

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