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Here some suggested organisations that offer expert advice on SN.

Specified and quantified?

(38 Posts)
kojackscat Sun 26-Apr-15 11:47:59

I keep hearing this on this forum, but I am not sure if it refers to the old system or the new EHCP.

I am waiting for the draft plan for DS. (a new one, not a transfer from statement)

When I asked about hours, the LA told me that 'we don't do that anymore'

Are they correct? Are they supposed to still talk about number of hours, or i that the old way of doing it?

thanks

fairgame Sun 26-Apr-15 12:00:32

Quantified and specified relates to the new system and should be in the EHCP.
From IPSEA:-

The local authority must secure the specified special educational provision (Section F) for the child or young person (section 42 of the Act). This straightforward duty is the reason why the part of the plan dealing with special educational provision is probably the most important. It creates a direct legally enforceable entitlement. The legal entitlement is only possible to enforce, however, if the EHC plan is written in accordance with the law and provides detailed and accurate information about the difficulties of the child or young person and the provision required to address those difficulties. This is why the special educational provision in the plan needs to be specified and quantified and why the exercise of going through the evidence to make the EHC plan correctly reflects the child or young person’s special educational needs and the special educational provision to meet those needs is so important.

kojackscat Sun 26-Apr-15 13:33:02

Thanks. I'll wait for the draft and go through it v v carefully.

sazale Sun 26-Apr-15 15:44:42

My case worker told me gbat with regards statements! It's not true.

From IPSEA
"provision must normally be specified in terms of hours etc. This is a legal requirement."

This checklist should be helpful
www.ipsea.org.uk/file-manager/SENlaw/ipsea-ehc-plan-checklist-2015-april.pdf

kojackscat Sun 26-Apr-15 16:01:57

Thanks sazale,

I have been looking at the code of practice. It says

'If a child’s parent or a young person makes a request for a particular nursery, school or post-16 institution in these groups the local authority must comply with that preference and name the school or college in the EHC plan unless:
• it would be unsuitable for the age, ability, aptitude or SEN of the child or young person, or
• the attendance of the child or young person there would be incompatible with the efficient education of others, or the efficient use of resources'
(my bold)

Does that mean they can just say, 'sorry, its too expensive' or 'we don't have the resources for that' and I just have to believe them?

fairgame Sun 26-Apr-15 18:29:09

Yes they can argue that it is too expensive under the 'efficient use of resources' part. You can appeal and try and show that your choice is not much more expensive or is cheaper than theirs. My solicitor told me that as long as its less than 10k more expensive then tribunal might give you it as parental preference is taken into account. Or you can prove that your choice is the only school that can meet dc's needs.

fairgame Sun 26-Apr-15 18:33:52

I'm pissed off about the quantified and specified part in regards to statements. DS's statement was q&s when he was in ms. Last year i won an appeal for an indie ss and the LA sent me a draft statement with the q&s hours taken out but with more provision in part 3. I queried it and the LA said that when dc go to ss the hours are removed confused My solicitor looked over the draft and said the same and that it doesn't matter that its no longer q&s. Now when we move over to an EHCP i'm going to have to try and get the LA to quantify and specify again. I can't see that going down easily. Solicitor should have known better angry

kojackscat Sun 26-Apr-15 19:03:31

So how do I know the costs of each school?

fairgame Sun 26-Apr-15 19:05:39

They should provide a cost breakdown if you ask them. If it's a maintained school then the LA will usually tell you the cost. For a non-maintained school you will need to speak to the school directly. Don't forget to factor in any transport costs.

kojackscat Sun 26-Apr-15 19:55:27

They want ds to have a ms school. I want a ss in the next council area along. So I assume ss is much more expensive than ms. So, even though its recommended that he has small classes, i guess it will be too expensive and he will have to go in a ms class of 30+

fairgame Sun 26-Apr-15 20:25:43

Can you prove that only a ss can meet his needs?
SS is usually more expensive than ms but it really depends. If a child is having full time 1:1 or 2:1 in ms then ss might be cheaper or only slightly more expensive.
If there is anything in his statement that can't be provided in ms but can in the ss then you have a case. Ds is entitled to all of the provision in his statement and if the ms school cannot meet his needs then you can appeal for your choice regardless of cost. If you do appeal because ms can't meet his needs then the LA may offer an alternative ss, if they do this and their offer can meet his needs than this is the stage that cost will matter.

kojackscat Sun 26-Apr-15 20:37:42

One expert said he needed small class sizes of 6-8. The others didn't mention class size. Obviously 6-8 cant be managed in ms, but I don't yet know if that recommendation has made it into the draft plan. I'll have to wait and see. I'm just anticipating trouble. Perhaps I'm being too negative, perhaps it will all work out ok.

fairgame Sun 26-Apr-15 20:48:38

If it hasn't made it into the plan and the LA want to put him in a ms class then you have grounds to appeal the plan once it is finalised. Has the expert put it in writing that small class sizes are needed?

kojackscat Sun 26-Apr-15 20:58:25

Yes, she has. I think its just a waiting game now, to see what it says.

2boysnamedR Sun 26-Apr-15 22:56:31

Indi ss isn't always more expensive. A friend told me she found out her indi tiny ss was about 60k cheaper (faint!)

kojackscat Sun 26-Apr-15 23:06:38

Wow. There are no indie ss round here. Shame. Or any indie schools that look anything like they could meet his needs.

sazale Mon 27-Apr-15 07:39:00

If you find the schools you want to know info about on here
www.education.gov.uk/schools/performance/
At the bottom of the school's page is often the amount it's funded per child. It might be able to give you a rough idea while you get exact coatings.

Icimoi Mon 27-Apr-15 13:35:33

Your LA is 100% wrong. Refer them to page 166 of the new Code of Practice which sets out how they are required to have detailed and specified provision in part F of the EHCP.

kojackscat Mon 27-Apr-15 13:36:53

Thanks sazale. I had used that link for school performance data, but didn't realise it had financial data on it too. Its v useful.

kojackscat Tue 28-Apr-15 18:14:00

We seem to have reached a stumbling block. The la won't send me the draft plan until I tell them what school I want. I won't tell them what school I want until I have seen the draft plan.
I know by law they can't name a school on the draft, and have to give me 15 days to respond, and have a meeting with them if I want to.

So, it looks like it all stops here, until one of us gives in.
Which will be me, as I want ds to get some support. They could sit on it forever, they don't care if he gets the help or not.

fairgame Tue 28-Apr-15 18:21:35

They HAVE to send you the draft plan with the school left blank. That is in the code of practice.
Send them an email referring to the code of practice and that you expect you see your draft plan by xx date.

kojackscat Tue 28-Apr-15 18:44:55

I have asked parent partnership to give them a nudge.
There is a small loophole in their published timescale. There is no time limit
On the step from agreeing to give him a plan to sending the draft plan out. It just explains that after the panel the plan will be sent out and I have 15 days to reply. We are now in the unmeasured bit between panel agreeing it, and the draft being posted to me.
So I know they HAVE to send it to me, but there is no deadline as to WHEN they have to.

Its aa if they use every trick in the book to avoid sorting things out. Um sure its a false economy, they must spend thousands on unnecessary burocracy.

kojackscat Tue 28-Apr-15 18:45:28

Sorry for the spelling!

bedelia Tue 28-Apr-15 19:59:39

From what I've read, LAs have 6 weeks after agreeing to produce an EHC plan to do assessments, after which they should produce a draft. A final plan MUST be issued within 20 weeks of the original application. I see where the grey area is...

How many weeks have passed since the application for EHCP was first made?

kojackscat Tue 28-Apr-15 20:49:26

That's unknown. We started the process in a different la, then moved house. The new la are refusing to say what date it was passed over to them, so we don't know when they are counting from. Each rime I ask I get brushed aside with an answer that means nothing.

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