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If in the middle of a statementing battle would you now refer to the old SENCOP or the new one?

(33 Posts)
Ineedmorepatience Sat 15-Nov-14 21:54:58

Sorry for the really long question!

We are between tribunals for those who dont know, we won the refusal to assess and the LA produced a NIL so now we are preparing for round 2. There some very relevant phrases in the new SENCOP but someone told me I have to stick with the old one as that is what I started with confused

Anyone know the answer??

bjkmummy Sat 15-Nov-14 21:58:56

i think as its off to tribunal you are bound at this stage to the old code as that's how the tribunal will hear the evidence - however I think you could mention the new code - isn't there something in the new one that now replaces 'adequate' education to something like 'the child being able to reach their best potential' or words to that effect which in theory would make it an easier argument.

im sure the tribunal published transition information as to how things would run between the 2 new systems - I think you also get the chance at the end of a NIL appeal to request an EHCP. I guess a nIL appeal has to go under the old way as under the new way a NIL simply no longer exists

Ineedmorepatience Sat 15-Nov-14 22:24:49

Yes you have picked up two of the points I want to use bjk smile

I want to say that NIL's effectively no longer exist as of 1/9/14
and the sentence I want to use is this one
" fails to match or better the child's previous rate of progress!"
and there is definitely something about potential in the new one.

What do you think?

Ineedmorepatience Sat 15-Nov-14 22:28:52

Yes I printed off the transition info when I printed the new cop, I will have a look tomorrow smile

StarlightMcKenzie Sun 16-Nov-14 08:16:13

You need to use the old code. However it would be nonsense for anyone to dismiss your referral to the new one because technically you could apply for SA under the new system today.

Ineedmorepatience Sun 16-Nov-14 10:19:32

Thanks starlight and yes the senco at the new school and I did briefly discuss bailing out of the tribunal and applying for an EHC needs assessment.

The LA have called her as a witness which is a shame but was inevitable hmm

bjkmummy Sun 16-Nov-14 10:42:23

problem I guess I need is that if you apply for a EHCP there is still no guarantee they would issue one but that said they would look pretty stupid given that they had already issues a NIL. you would probably need to show that the NIL has made no difference at all.

my LA when I asked about the NIL and how it fits in under the new system given it no longer technically exists they twittered on about how the NIL is able to be reviewed??? think they have just completely made that one up as nowhere in the code of practice does it say that and given my dd has now received more dx the NIL is out of date completely.

the other thing I don't understand about this appeal and someone I think has confused me which doesn't help - you go to appeal your NIL, the tribunal agree to issue a statement/EHCP - they panel don't actually issue a statement with their judgement do they? im guessing there is a period of time afterwards that the LA have to issue a statement/EHCP and then would it be a draft plan?

someone said to me that the panel themselves would issue the statement which I don't think is right. problem is I guess theres not that many of us who go all the way to appeal at tribunal a NIL though seems at the moment to be quite a few of us on here at the moment battling it

2boysnamedR Sun 16-Nov-14 10:55:28

I don't think they panel can force any content into a statement / ehcp. I think they recommend. The la can as usual ignore then you appeal - again!

bjkmummy Sun 16-Nov-14 11:03:00

that's what I thought 2boys - I fully expect to be back at tribunal around this time again next year appealing the content of whatever they issue if we win this time.

PP have phoned me last week (think they were fishing as asking if I was getting an EP report and what secondary school I have just named but managed to avoid giving an answer as think it would be all fed back to the LA ) but she phoned to say she has lodged a complaint about my eldest sons transfer meeting to EHCP as it was so poorly done so ive got no confidence in my LA under any system they use. PP admitted that this tribunal is all completely personal due to the SEN officers deep dislike of me and nothing to do with if my dd needs a statement or not and I am the only person in my LA who has ever been issued a NIL - aren't I lucky!

there has been a recent case which sets out what the tribunal in a NIL will look at law wise - will go and get it and put the details on here. I don't think my LA have a clue what they will be arguing legally speaking - their case is that her needs can be met under the 6k and that any secondary school could meet her complex needs but then have no evidence to show it and no explanation to how she would access SALT, OT, specialist teaching all for less than 6k

Icimoi Sun 16-Nov-14 11:37:30

An appeal against a NiL is officially an appeal against refusal to issue a statement, so if you win the tribunal simply orders that a statement be produced. If you don't like the statement the LA produces, it's back to the tribunal

I think it's quite a good idea in this type of appeal to produce your own informal working document to summarise the child's difficulties and show what support he needs. With luck showing the tribunal what a statement ought to look like will help to persuade them, and if you succeed you can lean on the LA to use your draft as a starting point.

Although there's no official NiL in the new procedures, I think it would make sense for LAs to continue to use them. The logic behind an NiL is that it pulls together the information obtained during the assessment and offers guidance to schools, and it seems to me that the same logic ought to apply still.

Ineedmorepatience Sun 16-Nov-14 12:01:11

But surely ici if a child needs the amount of provision that is put into a NIL then they need a statement/ Ehcp to ensure that the provision is actually made !

bjk My LA only started issuing NIL's this summer, I think Dd3's was about the 3rd. Even an LA EP that I know said "If they have been told by tribunal to assess then you will get a statement!" Yeah right confused

bjkmummy Sun 16-Nov-14 12:59:19

i was thinking about whether to produce my own working document/nil as then the tribunal can see all in one place what her needs are - the LA have not documented everything in her NIL and since the NIL was issued she has been diagnosed with ASD and other things as well. the LA version of the NIL is clear that it was rushed together as the LA made a huge cock up over the timelines so literally threw it together in 24 hours and as its the one and only one ever to be issued it shows that its not great - also everything in it is not specified or quantified so I would like to show in black and white exactly what she will need and how there is no way that could be done for under the 6k.

I also intend to put in her twins EP report which shows more or less the same needs, her levels are much much lower academically and he got a statement for 20 hours and she got a NIL. there is no panel so the decision is made on the whim of a lone sen officer and as she hates me there is no rhyme or reason to who gets a statement or for how many hours, depends totally what mood she is in and how much you haven't upset her - needless to say I have upset her an awful lot!

the whole system is a farce - the LA never had any intention of issuing a statement even if we won the refusal to assess - they say as much in the response to the tribunal. right back at the start of this one mumsnetter predicted that I would be at tribunal 3 times simply because of how my LA behaves not because there are no needs or evidence - how can that be right? one year on now from when this all started and in that year she has made zero progressed and is regressing despite all of this so called extra help they have thrown at her to get her levels up - it has failed spectaculary but we all know I will be at tribunal fighting this.

sorry ineed didn't mean to hijack - I know you and 2boys are in this with me and its wrong just so so wrong when our kids desperately need this help and the fight that they are making us all go through - thank goodness we have here to meet up and exchange ideas/experiences so that makes us so much more stronger

Ineedmorepatience Sun 16-Nov-14 14:17:25

Dont worry about hijacking bjk as you say we are in this together and we need to attract the people who know to our threads. We have all had some great advice on the sn board and we have helped each other too.

We will be able to help others when this is all over but yes I agree that we will probably be back at tribunal for the crap statements we will get if we get one at all!

Nothing specified or quantified in our NIL either!

My LA dont use a panel either, the statementing officer told me he reads the paperwork, makes an decision and then checks it with his manager!! angry The manager holds the purse strings as if they are her own so we are fucked basically !

Icimoi Sun 16-Nov-14 14:44:18

Ineed, I don't disagree with you about NiLs, but I suppose the argument is that if the LA has decided that the child needs support but not enough to warrant a statement, it's still useful to draw that together into a NiL.

2boysnamedR Sun 16-Nov-14 14:48:12

My la do have a panel. I have the attendees via a foi request. Interesting a Sw is on the panel, we're not know to ss. Not sure how much the panel looks seriously at each case as one said they didn't know if he met criteria, so he didn't get it anything

2boysnamedR Sun 16-Nov-14 14:49:51

I fully expect to appeal any statement. My la will not do anything without a fight. Not thinking about that until this one is over

Ineedmorepatience Sun 16-Nov-14 15:22:05

I see what you are saying ici but my experience so far has been that the schook met with us to discuss the provision in the NIL, agreed that yes she needs all that and then ignored most of it hmm

I suppose if a child genuinly doesnt need a statement then it could be useful but then they wouldnt bother anyway they would just say nope!

I just dont believe that a child with autism, spd, spld etc can get their needs met in mainstream without a statement/ehcp, I dont see how it can happen. This is our 3rd mainstream school and none have managed it yet!

Or maybe I just want the moon on a stick, I dont know anymore confused angry sad brew

bjkmummy Sun 16-Nov-14 16:50:57

i went last week to view a special school for my dd - I told my dd we were going and she was so excited as she would finally meet kids 'of her own kind' the school was amazing and I could see her there - the head was insipirational and everything he said made so much sense but until I get the NIL changed to a statement im screwed but it has given me the incentive to fight even harder for her to get her a place where she will thrive and most importantly be happy and made me see that mainstream just wont work for her , I know it and the LA know it but we will do this merry dance and delay her getting the help she needs. in the past year whilst weve all faffed around her levels have dropped from being 36 months behind to 42 months behind so yep clearly school based interventions have worked so well for her - not and this even with us self funding specialist teaching

Ineedmorepatience Sun 16-Nov-14 17:09:23

School sounds good bjk we dont have anywhere within an hour so really need to make mainstream to work for Dd3, there is another option from yr 10 but we have to get that far first!

I know what you mean about all the faffing around,that is the most annoying part, we are actually only asking most these people to do their damn jobs properly!! hmm

2boysnamedR Sun 16-Nov-14 17:57:44

I still think it's just all down to money. Unless our kids make life hard for the school then the school will never want to pay that first 10k of provision. It's totally wrong. At the end of the day that money isn't there

bjkmummy Sun 16-Nov-14 18:03:14

especially in primary as they don't get the 4k per child its usually between 2 - 3K - my schools whole SEN budget is 3k a year so how on earth would they be able to find 10k per child = they simply cannot do it

Ineedmorepatience Sun 16-Nov-14 18:23:39

I have heard "Your child can have 15 hrs support without needing a statement" so many times, I have lost count!

Come on LA's realistically, this is never going to happen, it didnt happen under the old system and it isnt going to happen now!

2boysnamedR Sun 16-Nov-14 20:08:40

I have been told ds gets 10.5 hours of support but the intervention he gets adds up to 2.5 hours a week group work! It's some one else statement hours, he's bolted on we guess. It's so unfair that the school have to find the first 10k. I feel for them, I really do BUT it's the system that's fundamentally wrong. We can put a probe on a comet but we can't buy a dsypraxic kid a sit and move cushion or give him SLT for his severe language disorder? Ffs!!! I could buy the bloody cushion but the common sense to sit his bum on the blasted thing - impossible! I might staple it to his trousers....

2boysnamedR Sun 16-Nov-14 20:11:58

Btw my la have added ds indi slt into hours of intervention! That he gets at school! It's stated intervention in the appeal. I can't believe the cheek!

Back to topic - when we went to appeal it wasn't mentioned if this would result in a ehcp or statement.

Ineedmorepatience Sun 16-Nov-14 21:32:26

Make sure you counter the LA's claims in your evidence or mention it to the panel 2boys, Are you paying for it?

I have spoken to an advisor and he suggested that the LA could offer to write an EHCP if they are ordered to make a statement but that it would be our choice. I probably would go with the EHC if they offered it just because they are already messing people around during transitioning!

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