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Please help me deal with DS manipulation.

(52 Posts)
youarewinning Fri 26-Jul-13 21:17:13

Hi all, my DS (8.11) is becoming more and more manipulative in his behaviours (for want of a better word). He has been referred to Camhs and it's suspected he has some kind of ASD (AS or HFA).

His behaviour is generally good but he can manipulate things to get what he wants. I first thought this showed he couldn't have ASD but after a quick google see this isn't uncommon in children with this dx. It does say it's because they are anxious and need to control their world - which is DS to a T.

It also says about using direct questions but I have no idea what this means and there appears to be a lack of advice on how to deal with this. He does do the slight change in conversation to lead it towards what he wants - not bad for a child who cannot open or sustain a conversation. grin

I am using the "when you have (we have) done X, then we/ you can do Y" but then he doesn't want to do Y argggggggggggggg.

At times I feel like I'm living with Sheldon Cooper for those who watch TBBT and the next 6 weeks are gonna be lloooooonnnggggg!

Please help - any advice welcome.

youarewinning Thu 01-Aug-13 00:17:56

Thanks. Enjoy your couple of weeks out and about.

Your help and advice has been invaluable - thanks again

claw2 Wed 31-Jul-13 23:58:44

Ds also speaks very loudly when relaxed and i have to remind him to turn the volume down and very quietly and mumbles when anxious and I have to remind him to speak up and complete silence when overwhelmed!

Im off to bed, I wont be around for a couple of weeks, have lots of things planned, its been lovely chatting and I hope you have a great day tomorrow smile

claw2 Wed 31-Jul-13 23:50:50

We have had fluid in the ears and this was blamed for his speech delay when younger. It is more to do with his audio processing and/or his level of interest, he is not going to interact if you don't interest him, he can take or leave you.

Im not convinced, at developmental hearing test at HV's, which ds failed miserably, he sat on my lap twisting his shoe laces, while she stood behind ringing bells and shouting his name. He was totally ignoring her, he had no interest in her and was blocking her out. That kid could hear a sweet wrapper open from 100 miles!

I was told oh he must have a cold, bring him back next month. He failed the same standing behind you hearing test, again and again and again and I was told he had glue ear and talk of grommets, which I refused.

He eventually passed a hearing test, ages later, one of those where you don't have to respond, they just bounce some frequencies through head phones and measure it electronically.

His speech delay of not being able to pronounce certain sounds, resolved once he could read. McDonalds for example was called 'HcDonalds'. I used to try and try to get him to pronounce it properly. Then one day we went to McDonalds, he looked at the sign, read it and asked 'why didnt you tell me its called McDonalds and not HcDonalds'! So now he doesn't have to rely on hearing sounds, he can read them, its resolved!

youarewinning Wed 31-Jul-13 23:29:11

Im still working on it, ds just doesn't get why it is rude to say it out loud, no matter how I explain it. I get 'but I do want them to go home'! If I say they wont want to come again, I get 'good, I don't want them to'. Have been there!

youarewinning Wed 31-Jul-13 23:28:24

I have been having a think over the past few days as need to get everything down to tell Camhs in September.

I remember calling a HV when I returned to UK (DS was 2) as felt things weren't right - that he existed in his own hyperactive bubble and never seemed to relax. She told me to cut out sodium benzoate and seemed uninterested beyond this. I use to describe him as like the Tazmanian devil on speed. grin

Then when he was 4ish I mentioned I wondered if it was his hearing because he really did not seem to notice others around him talking to him. Also he spoke (and still does) is quite a loud and aggressive sounding tone. Turned out he did have fluid in his ears and was referred to ENT who said his hearing itself was fine.

Turns out the fluid in ear is probably related to the fact he has allergies. Which only really began to show up at 4/5 leading to his idiopathic (in that no allergen was identified) anaphylactic reaction when he was 6.

I do think DS copes better out of the house than in - he seems more anxious and withdrawn but definitely is less frustrated. Your really testing my brain but making me realise so much. thanks

Pool day sounds great grin

claw2 Wed 31-Jul-13 23:17:41

Im still working on it, ds just doesn't get why it is rude to say it out loud, no matter how I explain it. I get 'but I do want them to go home'! If I say they wont want to come again, I get 'good, I don't want them to'. We have more success with meeting 'friends' outside of the house, ds is much more tolerable of others on neutral ground.

You have a good understanding, Im not sure if overwhelmingness is a word, if not it should be smile

Beach sounds lovely and looks like you will certainly have the weather for it tomorrow. We are planning a 'pool' day, in the massive paddling pool in the garden, filled with cold water and inflatable sitting on things, which I will have to get into too, oh joy!

youarewinning Wed 31-Jul-13 22:46:57

Oh DS has been known to shout "I want them to GO HOME NOW" or at others "I want to GO HOME NOW" when things have bothered him.

He's getting older - 9 in 3 weeks and so is beginning to control his emotions.
He generally starts withdrawing when it gets overwhelming - hence why I did DVD - an easy way of making sure as we had visitors that DS didn't actually have to play anymore iyswim?
He holds most of it in and then something else will set him over the edge - but I'm beginning to understand it is just the overwhelmingness (is that a word?) of being around others.

We have a day at the beach tomorrow (11am til prob 4ish). So he can have minecraft for an hour in morning and then will probably shut himself off on it for 2 hours or so when we get home. I'll let him if he behaves himself wink Beach is usually a good one as he can play alone and get much needed space if he needs it.

claw2 Wed 31-Jul-13 22:09:49

Wow quite a lot happening for your ds today and a busy social day, he did amazing.

My ds would have managed about 10 minutes of being in the company of other kids, in his house and withdrew to youtube vids on his ipod, with his face 2 inches away from it, doing his little head shake thing or shut in his room, lining things up.

Ds would also have no qualms telling them all to go home now, if they spoke to him!

youarewinning Wed 31-Jul-13 21:58:48

Might add was the same friend we'd spent this afternoon with and the trip is a 3 hr round trip so I'd offered to have them all at mine if they/she wanted.

youarewinning Wed 31-Jul-13 21:57:29

Oh FFS spoke to soon!

This this evening I had my friends 2 DD's whilst she took her DSD home.
DS was getting annoyed because he couldn't sit on the sofa where he always sits and therefore would have to turn head an inch to watch TV - so I gave him bean bag on floor. I won't give in to his strops! Younger DD2 (8) then suggested DS sat next to her and she'd move over a bit - queue the fussing of who's sitting an inch or 2 the wrong way.
Watch film, eat dinner whilst watching and then decide to watch another. Friends younger DD2 is clever in that she knows when the answer to something will be no and so gets DS to ask - still no!
DS was doing his random commenting out loud and mimicking lines he knows with the film and they kept telling him to shut up - fair enough! and I took the control away as he kept trying to flick back and forth over and to bits he likes!
So second film the older DD1 (9) sits in corner - other 2 moan but I say its fair as they sat there before and she was on one end of sofa - we have a huge corner sofa btw! So the DD2 suggests sitting on floor, DS moves with her and get's comfy, then she suggests sitting on the box so he moves, she then wants him to swap places as she wants the TV side, he does, then he decides he's not comfy so lays on floor. The DD2 gets up and askes in the ever so nicely sickly sweet voice "DS, please can you move so I can sit on the floor" I can see DS getting annoyed at this point and we'd already had tears as they'd asked too many questions of him at one point so I said "You'll have to sit on sofa or the box, it's not on for him to keep moving for you" She wasn't impressed. hmm So anyway DS moved a bit over where he was lying and she laid in front of him - he got cross because he couldn't see but she did actually move over a bit.
So anyway I knew by this point DS would be holding it together - and was doing a fab job grin

So they leave, DS asks me where the little and I mean 2x2 inch bit of paper with carraiges on is that he gave me the other day. We'd had maggots in the kitchen bin shock and he'd become anxious about sleeping and rubbish so emptied his bed of all the crap important to him bits he has to sleep with! He'd told me it was rubbish so I'd binned it.

Cue floods and I mean distraught tears. sad I was trying to find out what leaflet he'd got it from to find a replacement (was going to do a MN help me thread!) 20 minutes of tears and I searched the recycling bin - which I'd recently emptied. Anyway eventually found it in the bin in his room - and he's now collapsed in bed exhausted clutching his piece of paper.

God love him - he really can only handle short bouts of socialness before he gets himself overwhelmed sad

lougle Wed 31-Jul-13 19:12:43


youarewinning Wed 31-Jul-13 19:05:46

lougle that's a good idea. I can tell him what he needs to do before the alarm goes off, as when the alarm goes off X is happening and he needs to be ready.

I have to say I'm proud of him this afternoon. We met a friend and him and her DD (8) went swimming. They can go in alone and we watched. Then we went back to friends and he played out with both hers DD's and some of the neighbourhood kids. (by play I mean mostly on the outside but he was there being social!)
He seemed really calm, and despite getting upset in the car on the way home because he wasn't sure how to deal with some of the things he played well. grin

claw2 Wed 31-Jul-13 14:16:45

Youarewinning Great!! Im sure with a bit of fine tuning from you to what suits him best, you will have it sorted smile

lougle Wed 31-Jul-13 13:54:42

Can you use an alarm clock with him? Often we see the intense time watching as a negative thing because it's so debilitating - he can't do anything else because he's watching the time.

Well, we don't do that if we have an important meeting, do we? We set an alarm clock.

If you can demonstrate that the alarm clock absolutely will go off when he sets it, then he can be free to use every other bit of time constructively.

So, you could start by doing a 'dummy run' for a non important time. Say, 'let's set the alarm clock for 2.45pm.' When it goes off, you have confirmed it works.

Then, he can set the alarm clock for Top Gear, or whatever, and knows that he doesn't have to fret.

youarewinning Wed 31-Jul-13 13:21:41

YAHOOOOOOOOO claw2 the giving timings such as after breakfast and after lunch is working sort of grin

Wanted minecraft this morning - told him he knows no computer before 9am. So he plans whats on TV until then - no mention of breakfast, so I say at 8.30am he needs breakfast and to wash/dress before computer time (so before 9am). He went and made his breakfast in such a hurry half the coco pops ended up on the floor, over the worktop and in the cutlery drawer and did his teeth for 30 seconds unprompted.

He had his hour. Told him he could have another half hour in the afternoon. 12noon he asks for it - will I ever learn?!

I said after lunch he could have half hour before he goes swimming with his friend and then back to friends house.

Make him lunch - 4 mouthfuls later he's full up hmm

So I said he could use computer half hour from the time he started his lunch. OK he said, waited 5 minutes then scoffed the lot. grin

So I've realised I'm going to have to be very specific about time, when that time comes and whats expected of him during this time. It's not fair to him for me to keep moving goalposts like today but I was testing what you said against his reactions to see exactly where I was at and how to solve it.

youarewinning Wed 31-Jul-13 09:02:31

Haha triggle DS is always on the next sentence before he finishes the previous one I have time to answer grin

claw2 On the surface DS has a fantastic imagination - but like your DS it based on what he knows as facts. For example he'll play with his cars and have them all lined up out on the car mat. The police cars are doing all sorts of stopping other cars - but he's just reinacting episodes of traffic cops or the police car can only do what police cars actually do. He's never been into Ben 10 or Star Wars or anything else his peers have had an interest in. Except bloody minecraft!

claw2 Wed 31-Jul-13 00:53:14

I always thought ds had a brilliant imagination, the imaginary friends etc. It has become clearer as he has got older, its not so much imagination but more an extension of his 'jargon' speech when he was younger. He doesn't know something or the words to use, so he just makes it up.

Its more separating fantasy and reality he has difficulties with. Ds doesn't so much quote facts, he makes up his own or puts his own slant on the facts he does know and he can talk for hours about his made up facts!

Trigglesx Tue 30-Jul-13 22:37:30

Not fair. I have to answer ALWAYS.... or he will say over and over "Mum? Mum?? Did you hear me?? I saw an Alfa Romeo!! and a Bentley!! Mum?? MUM??? ....." hmm Yes, yes, alfa romeo, Bentley, yes. And he's already on the next sentence. grin

youarewinning Tue 30-Jul-13 22:03:15

Yes that's what DS is reciting - oh that's a BMW, that's a Audi, which is your favourite, I prefer the BMW, when I grow up I'm going to drive one of those, Jeremy Clarkson says BMW's are......<insert fact>, I'm going to design a car that does..........<insert idea, do you think that's possible, why is that called a roundabout when it's not round, the speed limit along here is............

It would appear I'm not actually required to answer thank fuck grin

Trigglesx Tue 30-Jul-13 21:47:15

Yep - our toileting instructions are step by step. grin Very clear.

And yes, DS1 talks to himself all the time. And to me all the time. And to his brother all the time. He pretty just talks all the time. And god help you if you don't answer, because he will not stop until you do. And then he STILL doesn't stop. grin

It's not imaginary stuff or imaginary friend though. He's reciting facts, figures, car makes, whatever current obsession he has.

youarewinning Tue 30-Jul-13 21:45:18

DS just does not stop chatting to himself at times! Even today whilst his swimming teacger is addressing the group you can see his mouth moving - I'm thinking she's gonna tell him in a mo to stop talking over her. But in fact realise he's not - he is just chatting to himself! Either that or was just doing one of his random facial things he does.

Yet today car went in for MOT, mum picked us up from garage with my Dnephew 21 months and took us to my cousins for an hour. My aunt and cousins DD (20 months) there.

DS is full of it in car making DN laugh really hard. Get into cousins and he is quiet, find microwave toy and keeps putting things in and loving watching the food spin round inside - I know because he told me how great it was hmm Then they out on TV and DS sat glued to something. My Auntie commented he was quiet asked him how he was - no response from DS. I prod him and say auntie is talking to you, she repeats the question - he just looked at her, said fine and got up to walk away. She tried tickling his side saying you can smile you know. He just looked confused gave a smile and walked off.

He comes across as so rude blush Got back in car and he started really playing with DN again and didn't shut up until he went to bed (except when swimming as he couldn't talk with face in water grin)

claw2 Tue 30-Jul-13 21:32:55

Oh yes Youarewinning!

Ds used to have lots of imaginary friends, a whole family of them, including a dog and he spoke to them constantly. I felt sure this must be a good sign of ds not having ASD and a very good imagination and was telling paed about his imaginary friends.

Later during the same appointment paed asked me 'does your ds talk to himself much'. I replied 'no' to which he reminded me talking to imaginary friends would be talking to yourself! blush

youarewinning Tue 30-Jul-13 21:11:55

Oh need toileting instructions - things like pull your clothes up and wash your hands before you leave the bathroom grin

Do any of your DC's frequently talk to themselves? DS does it all the time and even had a conversation with himself him Tesco this evening blush


Trigglesx Tue 30-Jul-13 17:32:06

We have laminated lists around the house. I've had a few comments about the toileting instructions from guests. grin

claw2 Tue 30-Jul-13 15:45:29

All that I know, shouldn't take too long grin Exactly, you can give some a try, adjust some or discard. You know your ds best and what is/isn't worth a try. Good luck.

and oh yes minecraft, or youtube watching others playing minecraft is ds's latest obsession too!

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