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Teachers want neurological assessment

(23 Posts)
KeepOnKeepingOn1 Tue 14-May-13 14:34:16

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/special_needs/1709442-Teachers-claim-DS2-is-having-random-good-and-bad-days
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/special_needs/1631087-Can-anybody-help-figure-out-these-SALT-and-OT-assessments-please

I have posted about DS2(7) before.

He has now been seen by the EP several times and she has done BAS3.

Verbal ability 98th percentile
Non-verbal reasoning ability 99.3 percentile
Spatial skills 81st percentile.

Teachers can see no pattern but find it very hard to get his attention at times (lacks motivation, disengaged, difficulty following simple instructions and organising himself, requires adult prompting several times, produces very little work even when he has shown previous enthusiasm for a subject, distracted, gets up and wanders off, ignores his name, unable to keep focus at times, reluctant to engage in activities despite 1:1 attention and support). Has apparently stopped calling out and making inappropriate comments and noises in class.

None of this behaviour was witnessed by the EP as DS2 was fully engaged in a maths lesson. She has advised completing ABC sheets at school and home.

The HT and the EP have not commented on his very high scores apart from saying that there is no cognitive reason why he is not attaining/working (and commenting that therefore I would not get a statement for him).

EP has also advised that DS2 is referred. When I asked 'who to' she said that the teachers insist that at times he completely ignores them and that as his hearing has been checked and he's a 'good boy and wants to please people' there must be some other medical issue that accounts for what they refer to as 'absences'. DS2 does completely ignore me but he is not zoning out imo. She seems to think that it is relevant that DS2 does not lose his temper, just ignores and/or does something else. It is a bit like talking to a brick wall. So she suggested that he is tested for epilepsy or some other neurological cause.

I am confused. Does anybody know what could be going on?

StarlightMcKenzie Tue 14-May-13 15:07:31

Boring lessons?

StarlightMcKenzie Tue 14-May-13 15:09:20

Sorry. Not helpful.

Have they completed the ABC charts?

If you have a school that has a 'problem' and therefore motivation to 'do something' then get THEM to do it as they'd be more likely to.

So, ABC charts for a week.

KeepOnKeepingOn1 Tue 14-May-13 15:51:28

Star - I did suggest that maybe he was bored - I think I could hear the EP snorting with derision on the other end of the phone.

DS2 has an appointment with the comm paed on Monday. This has kind of thrown me. SLCN have been identified but do not account for all behaviour and so I was hoping that the focus could be on whether this was secondary to ASD. But the other issues could also be explained as those seen in underattaining DC with high ability/dual ability. btw this is where all the stuff on the cognitive profile (spiky) of ASD can be found.

But instead the EP/teaching staff are convinced that there is a medical, neurological (not ASD) reason for his behaviour.

Is DS2s behaviour really that odd? Are other DC good natured in their extreme demand avoidance?

StarlightMcKenzie Tue 14-May-13 15:55:38

Sounds like they're just trying to blame HIM rather than themselves on his lack of attainment tbh.

StarlightMcKenzie Tue 14-May-13 15:58:42

Oldest trick in the book.

He's not learning from the lesson I teach. There must be something wrong with him..........

crazeelaydee Tue 14-May-13 16:07:48

Ahhh ABC chart, I suggested this to Ds's teacher when we were told the same...sadly she mis-understood me and thought I wanted her to just tell me when he was being naughty. Firmly told me she did! (I felt really sneeped grin) that she WILL NOT document ** bad behaviour! confused. Have they given any examples of how they have checked for patterns wouldn't that already be similar to the ABC?. Are the teaching styles varying? Sometimes Ds's CT does more verbal, more hands on, more visual etc etc. he could just be unmotivated by the teaching style at the time...hell knows I became bored stupid shut off a fair few times in my school life because of that.

StarlightMcKenzie Tue 14-May-13 16:12:31

that she WILL NOT document * bad behaviour!*

Too bloody right. However, it is essential that she documents NORMAL reactions to internal conflict/discomfort in order to be able to identify the situations when a child is struggling, find patterns and then put in appropriate support.

MareeyaDolores Tue 14-May-13 16:12:42

I wouldn't worry about the fact they're probably wrong in suspecting 'absences'. Just rejoice that they are noticing them, and are prepared to document them and acknowledge they affect his learning. Let everyone who wants to, write a report about his 'possible epilepsy' and how frequent and terrible the effects are.

Because all those reports will be very handy when if the paediatrician says the various tests are clear, and it must be something else (boredom, ASD, ADHD inattentive, auditory processing, language stuff, whatever).

sweetteamum Tue 14-May-13 16:29:35

Could I ask a very silly question - what is ABC?

KeepOnKeepingOn1 Tue 14-May-13 16:43:34

So the EP wants me to show the comm paed her report and tell him about the teachers concerns - at least the suspicion of epilepsy is not coming directly from me. Given that this is a second appt with a different comm paed after DH complained about the previous comm paed continually mixing up DS1 and DS2 I am worried that he will think that I am a complete loon and that this is my latest theory.

The CT/TA are actually completing the ABC charts but I'm afraid that I am with Beattie (off of the old BT ads www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEfKEzX9QLE) in believing that most teachers can't see (excusing the lovely CT/TA here smile). Because their theory of random absences is so favoured they are blind to the bleedin' obvious triggers.

KeepOnKeepingOn1 Tue 14-May-13 16:45:14

A = Antecedent (what happened before the behaviour)
B = Behaviour
C = Consequence (response to behaviour)

StarlightMcKenzie Tue 14-May-13 16:52:07

'So the EP wants me to show the comm paed her report and tell him about the teachers concerns '

And they're so confident that this is the right path of action they are prepared to put this in writing, or are you going to put yourself at risk of MBP?

StarlightMcKenzie Tue 14-May-13 16:54:34

By the way, the ABC's have to be in quick succession.

You can't have a C being, so he lost golden time on Friday, though it could be 'so we told him he has lost golden time on Friday'.

The C is the immediate consequence for that behaviour.

So it could be for example 'he was removed from the classroom'.

Then you can look at the A's and see that the C's happen every time the As are 'Maths lesson had just begun'.

MareeyaDolores Tue 14-May-13 16:56:33

Tell EP that third hand info is useless not as helpful as direct reports for suspected epilepsy, and you dont want to mix anything up. Especially since you've not noticed it yourself.

Smile sweetly and suggest that perhaps rather than
teacher observes
tells EP
tells mum
tells paed, teacher could make a note (diary of episodes?) outlining her concerns? wink

MareeyaDolores Tue 14-May-13 16:58:06

You could tell her this by email <innocent>

cornypedicure Tue 14-May-13 17:02:00

has he had a sensory OT assessment?

MareeyaDolores Tue 14-May-13 17:03:30

About teachers and selective inattention, in fairness, it can be quite hard to notice stuff when you're thinking of something else. Try watching this and you'll see what I mean.

KeepOnKeepingOn1 Tue 14-May-13 17:27:42

Mareeya - good advice and I absolutely love that video. I tried it on DS1 years ago but it didn't work - he was not counting and so had free attention to notice what others miss. This is what he does in day to day life.

DS2 has not had a SIPT assessment but I have completed a sensory profile. He has particular issues with food/oral sensitivity and has a very high pain tolerance, noise adverse but chooses to play music on ipod at max volume.

DS1 has SPD and extreme tactile defensiveness. DS2 is different.

PolterGoose Tue 14-May-13 22:37:06

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ilikemysleep Tue 14-May-13 22:43:02

Hmmm..I would be wondering, if I were the EP, about single channel attention in children who have features of autism. In absence seizures (that I have witnessed), children stop what they are doing - often mid-sentence - for just a couple of seconds up to about 10 seconds and then carry on, apparently completely unaware that they were momentarily 'not there'. It's not quite the same as ignoring verbal instructions, it's more transient and 'interrupted' than that. When he is ignoring, is he also frozen in space (worrying)? Or is he just very deeply involved in something, possibly something solitary like reading something or something on the computer (much less worrying, and probably an attention modulation issue)?

sweetteamum Wed 15-May-13 09:42:10

Thank you. This is very interesting. I may speak to the SENco about doing this for DS.

KeepOnKeepingOn1 Wed 15-May-13 11:18:27

Having googled and from re-reading the EP report is seems clear that the teachers suspect absence seizures.

However it seems that it is quite easily to reliably test as hyperventilation triggers them in about 90% of people. Wouldn't have wanted the docs to think that I was pursuing expensive diagnostic tests (like MRI).

I think the issue is whether they think I am blind to every other possible cause and convinced he has an ASD. The EP specifically reported no observed problems with appropriate responses to non-verbal cues and degree of need, reciprocity, following changing topics of conversation, verbal communication with peers, negotiation and cooperative skills, use of non-verbal communciation and all aspects of social interaction. Mind you this is an LA EP report.

I get suspicious when they make a point of reporting sharing a joke and DC having lots of friends. Prior to the tribunal DS1's statement was full of false crap that had been left in like 'he has good social skills' that had been claimed by teachers, despite the LA own experts reports to the contrary. In fact, at the hearing the LA EP tried to argue that DS1 must have good social skills otherwise the other children would not want to play with him. Idiot does not know when 'friendships' are explotiative (draw me a picture, run around the field 10 times etc).

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