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Here are some suggested organisations that offer expert advice on SN.

Help help help help - my pants are on fire - blardy racist feckers.....

(39 Posts)
StarlightMcKenzie Tue 26-Feb-13 13:28:13

Last sentence at bottom of page 163.

I'm so shock tbh I don't know what to say/do!?

EllenJaneisstillnotmyname Tue 26-Feb-13 21:01:02

It is a direct quote from Shah, though, and not their own words. But even good policies don't always translate into good practice, of course.

StarlightMcKenzie Tue 26-Feb-13 20:52:02

I think if the 'white service provider' blame their colour and not their attitude, - at least in my last LA for hostile receptions then they are being very naive indeed.

EllenJaneisstillnotmyname Tue 26-Feb-13 20:27:24

I skimmed the document and found it to be pretty good and honestly trying to improve matters for DC with autism?

I think that sentence in context is actually criticising the way ethnic minorities are treated in this predominantly white country and the 'white service provider' is just shorthand to describe how ethnic minorities feel, surely? If this is/was the perception then this document is challenging it and trying to make practitioners realise that this perception must not be allowed to become the truth.

moondog Tue 26-Feb-13 20:04:55

Proper Montessori stuff is top notch.

zzzzz Tue 26-Feb-13 19:51:20

Mareeya I couldn't agree more.

MareeyaDolores Tue 26-Feb-13 19:41:01

I'm a big Montessori fan, when its done properly. Multisensory learning, structured environment with some choice, routines and visual cues, emphasis on social skills, look at the dc's needs and gifts rather than their date of birth.... this is effective universal teaching which also works well for dc with SN.

And TEACCH nicked it wink

zzzzz Tue 26-Feb-13 17:24:11

Write from the start looks very interesting. Is there anywhere you can look inside?

babiki Tue 26-Feb-13 17:10:16

Just checked the Write from the start, it's on my wish list - thanks.
You are right though - no fancy names for it, bit this is very similar to what every child would be doing in the kindergarten, led by university trained teachers... and start school when they are 6-7 and ready...
Fusion of the best bits from what is working in various countries would be the best.

babiki Tue 26-Feb-13 17:02:15

Very interesting Bochead!
Agree with the meetings, nothing like that I know of too. In the Czech republic they are now 'discovering famous' British Teach system and visual aids (haha). Should have probably stuck with their own stuff.

moondog Tue 26-Feb-13 16:58:12

Very interesting Bochead and relevant points about not having the time or money to spout jargon and go to countless meetings. They just get on with it. I love 'Write from the Start' too.

Folk constantly bleat about inadequate staffing and resources.
I disagree.
There are too many people involved in this industry in this country.

Talking of meaningless jargon, the people who wrote the document Star refers to need shooting, purely for calling it a 'toolkit'. A toolkit is a large metal box full of useful tools ti fix and mend things, not a meaningless patronising write on diatribe that is neither use nor ornament.
Noone reads this stuff anyway-certainly not those charged with delivering a service.
I'd never read nor even seen the SN CofP until I realised it would be useful to me. None of the people I was dealing with had ever read it either.

bochead Tue 26-Feb-13 16:46:43

They don't call it "ABA", in Romania. Too inward looking a culture. They'd die before calling it ABA but it uses all the same principles. You are right too about the lack of legal framework, but then the all effort has been put into getting their sleeves rolled up and working with the kids rather than talking shop.

Their SN system just isn't saturated with trendy buzzwords and their whole approach is incredibly down to earth and about calling a spade a spade. There is no money at all for endless "professional meetings" and all the codswallop professionals over here have to wade through. Here people make a living out of being incomprehensible to the lay person through the use of jargon.

I think it translates as "intensive teaching", or "systematic evidence based" but having compared there and here with the help of an ex-MIL who is a primary teacher over there, the variations seem to be as small (or as wide) as you'd find between two different providers over here.

Just as an example lots of people will be familiar with - the very popular "write from the start" handwriting programme we use here is the standard mainstream way that ALL children are taught in Romania as the evidence proves it to be the most effective. (Author = Teodorescu & the clues in the name lol!).

I fully agree about the treatment of the Roma - to say professional & public attitudes are disgusting doesn't begin to cover it! Those awful orphanages are still being refilled with unwanted babies/children daily even though it no longer hits our press too. It's not all sunshine and roses over there, particularly in the current economic climate which has left a lot of E. Europe in a far bigger mess than Greece.

Some of the best professionals DS has come across (including his NHS SALT who deserves national recognition imho) have been from various ethnic minorities. The issue in my area is that the gatekeepers to professional services seem to have been the survivors from Noah's flood that somehow got stranded on their own little hill fort of bigotry and ignorance.

KeepOnKeepingOn1 Tue 26-Feb-13 16:20:41

The matter can be further complicated in that the 'white' population has been known to express views that 'foreign' doctors are less likely to understand difficulties relating to social communication in a 'host' community ...

babiki Tue 26-Feb-13 15:59:36

Quite surprised to hear about Romania and ABA! I'm from the Czech Republic and while OT, Salt and especially Physio is excellent, ABA is only mentioned in academic writing.
Inclusion started few years back, but with no legal framework, it is a complete mess.
And attitudes of people are still much much worse than here, disablist language common, staring in the street etc. Financial support very difficult to get now. And don't get me started on Roma...

bochead Tue 26-Feb-13 15:19:26

My son's Romanian 1/2 bro got a vastly superior start in life thanks to a system that can only afford to implement proper clinically evidenced teaching techniques & proven effective therapies, as opposed to the latest politicians fad. No stuck in a corner or corridor with a poorly trained TA there. Instead he had intensive ABA style tuition from age 2 - 7 with the outcome you'd expect from that level of timely, effective intervention. If he'd been of Roma origin that wouldn't have been the case though as those children are regarded as little more than dogs by their system.

In Hungary it takes 7 years to train as a teacher for children with disabilities, & then they specialise in just 2 disorders, as opposed to a 1 yr TA course here. In Nigeria there is now an ABA school and generally society has a far better attitude in terms of focusing on what a child can do, rather than spending time getting parents to "accept" their child's limitations. The goal in both places is to prepare a child to the best of everyone's ability for an independent adult life rather than assuming the welfare state will support them from cradle to grave.

I'll never be able to prove it, but anecdotal evidence in my area suggests that the children of white, middle class married mothers living in the "nicer" parts of the borough get far better treatment from the early years onwards. Those unfortunate enough to be born in the wrong postcode to a single mother of the wrong ethnic minority are more likely to have to fight for assessment, spend years "proving" their parenting skills and have to go to Tribunal to stand a chance of getting the services offered as a matter of course to the children of the first group.

All support services are physically located in the areas most easily accessible to the first group too. The effectiveness of those services is a subject for another debate.

zzzzz Tue 26-Feb-13 15:16:22

I was thinking more of long term care.

In families that live in large extended family households there are often members who are disabled, elderly or infants. In my experience they are cared for and have a role in the household.

Even the homes where I question weather this individual is being exploited doing domestic chores etc, I do wonder weather it isn't a better life than the boredom and loneliness I hear about in some institutions here?

Perhaps it is not better or worse just different.

StarlightMcKenzie Tue 26-Feb-13 15:05:55

Some of the eastern European countries are better for children with disabilities (though not sure about adults) because they just don't have the money to train up so many caring carrots. They can only afford people who DO something, and do it quick before the children become a burden as an adult.

zzzzz Tue 26-Feb-13 15:01:35

In my experience Europe is not the easiest place to have a disabled child. Our welfare system gives the impression of brilliant provision and security, but I'm not sure weather really our position is superior in any way.

StarlightMcKenzie Tue 26-Feb-13 14:47:38

But there are so many ways to write that without being perceived themselves as racist. I worry that there wasn't an alternative way of writing it, if that was true. I'ts written as if services providers are white, and some ethnic minorities might have a problem with it, which I find racest.

Having looked at it a bit more I'm interested in the point Mareeya makes regarding the fact that white parents at least on MN boards have a number of issues with service providers who are white and not white. I am especially interested in the implication that those countries who don't have a word for autism are somehow 'behind'. In fact, many of the ethnic minorities in the UK are from cultures where they just get stuck in with helping the child and see no particular need for labels. IMO far advanced of our crazy labelling system in the UK which is often all you get.

zzzzz Tue 26-Feb-13 14:42:25

It would read better without the "white" as it seems a bit hmm like the authors interpretation. I can't imagine that an ethnically Chinese (for example) provider would engender more confidence.

In my experience attitudes to disability vary massively between cultures and it is painfully obvious to me that few people give this much thought.

tabulahrasa Tue 26-Feb-13 14:22:51

I think it reads quite clearly as - that's what parents perceptions are... Yes it could be reworded, but I don't think it is actually acknowledging anything about the ethnic mix of service providers, just the fears of parents.

StarlightMcKenzie Tue 26-Feb-13 14:15:31

But you would mention them as the majority ethnic group, not the white group of professionals.

tabulahrasa Tue 26-Feb-13 14:13:46

I think it means perception as well, but also - it's um, their perception of white service providers isn't that out tbh.

babiki Tue 26-Feb-13 14:04:39

I think it's the perception of providers as being white. Statistically in UK, majority of them are white anyway, aren't they?

TheNebulousBoojum Tue 26-Feb-13 14:02:40

That's a very interesting read, Mareeya.
Thank you for the link.

ouryve Tue 26-Feb-13 14:00:42

Are all service-providers always white?

Absolutely not. DS2's lovely paediatrician is black and DS1's psych is Asian. We don't even live in a distinctly multicultural part of the world.

I take the last sentence as reportage of how parents perceive the services they receive, whether their perception is accurate and fair or not. I suppose the nearest thing we would commonly experience, as white mothers, is being instantly written off as neurotic by a professional. Or instantly being talked down to because of where we live, rather than being listened to, because it's assumed that we have no education or knowledge.

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