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Evidence/data types, can you help me with a problem?

(16 Posts)
lougle Mon 25-Feb-13 21:15:26

I think, as well, it's worth bearing in mind (not specifically for you, Star, because I don't know what your DS's school is like) that teachers at special schools generally don't have time to give detailed feedback all the time. I know at DD1's school, home-school books are often filled in during breaks because the day is so full-on that there is no other time to do it.

MareeyaDolores Mon 25-Feb-13 21:06:39

Got it: star offers them two choices
modified easy-peasy-star-special v. let's have a trial of doing it your normal way

MareeyaDolores Mon 25-Feb-13 21:01:57

and it was you who posted something that made me finally twig the power/control thing

'it's all about status' was your phrase
so now I make sure I nod at and then bypass the status-thing: cos I really don't care who they think is in charge of DS's education wink

moondog Mon 25-Feb-13 20:53:33

Perhaps Marya.
I dunno.
I'd bite the hand of any parent who came up with a good idea and so would the vast majority of people (educational staff) I work with. We're all for making life easier for everyone and it's easier for us if someone else has an idea.

I hate all this power/control thing.
And people think it's the kids who are challenging....

MareeyaDolores Mon 25-Feb-13 20:19:11

sort of gradually (and discreetly) shaping DS's observations towards he system used for the other dc wink

till someone at school eventually thinks: I've had a brand new idea of my own, why are we bothering with this adaptation, far too much hassle, let's take control and just switch him to the usual method we have for the other dc grin

MareeyaDolores Mon 25-Feb-13 20:16:15

Moondog, the only problem with reducing the aversiveness is that the very fact of it coming from a parent makes the list's very existence unbelievably aversive. Every little tick symbolises major loss of control and being forced to take unwarranted orders from non-professionals

Stayed in seat
Hand up to ask question
and so on.

TA already doing (at the end of the day)
'morning' comment
a lunch time comment
and an afternoon comment

For a reluctant staff member make it far too easy (step 3)
eg one observation only and no objective criteria, just a vague impression
Comment: eg: DS painted a frog
Listening: circle: below expected/as expected/ above expected

After a week of them circling 'as expected' reliably
then ask what 'expected' actually consists of (step 4) and write that on... and a week later, aim to raise the 'expected' bar a little (step 5)

moondog Mon 25-Feb-13 18:03:13

It's tedious to write sentences about behaviour so don't blame teachers for not being so on board.
You have to reduce its aversiveness and maximise effectiveness.
I'd agree with check list idea. Just a small one needed for each lesson.
What does it need? Positive behaviours to tick off rather than negative ones to hunt down

Stayed in seat
Hand up to ask question
and so on.

Teacher jsut has to tick them. Job done.

StarlightMcKenzie Mon 25-Feb-13 17:53:59

Yes, I see what you mean Mareeya

The thing is, they have and run the system I am asking for, for other children. So I'm not asking for something new, or in addition to what they do. It's what they agreed to do.

The only changes I am proposing to make, is a way to measure it's effectiveness, NOT because I want extra things but because they are saying that ds cannot access the usual way, and I am pretty certain he can. A trial of half a term will give us all a better picture of what to expect of him, - but only if it is measured some way.

Still I don't want to pee them off. I just measured ds on the TALC again, 2nd time since May last year, and being pregnant and new house and new school and negotiating with LA stuff, I haven't done much work with ds, though he has jumped TWO levels. I can't prove it was the school, and not maturity or the little work that I HAVE managed to do with him, but I do believe that they must have contributed significantly. I don't know how to come across tbh.

MareeyaDolores Mon 25-Feb-13 14:47:30

Star, c'mon, you're forgetting to ABA the staff.

Aim: regular detailed dialogue about behaviour areas that need addressing
Break it down into little bits and systematically reward each one till aim is met
Track data and amend strategies according to results

You've successfully started with
1.Have a book and people know about it (100% achieved)

and progressed to
2. actually write in it daily (100% achieved)

What's step 3?
(the suggestions above are great... for step 25 wink)

Ineedmorepatience Mon 25-Feb-13 14:35:19

starlight I have pmed you smile

StarlightMcKenzie Mon 25-Feb-13 14:30:48

I think I am less looking for a solution to the behaviour and more looking for information about them really. Ds get anxious if he doesn't understand what he is supposed to do to earn tokens. So things like 'being sensible' for tokens hasn't been working.

I'm after the information in order to identify what exactly are the problems iyswim, then either work with the school to address them, or just use the information to address them at home and practice.

But I need to convince them that Ds is capable, or at least will be with practice, but even if not, the information is worthy of collection.

lougle Mon 25-Feb-13 12:28:56

"I am also anxious that I have been finding out about incidents from the parents of the children in his class. DS tells me absolutely nothing about school."

Presumably, you are being told of these incidents by parents who have heard about them from their (SN) children? That adds a layer of anxiety because you can't be sure what the incidents are, accurately.

Before I had children, I used to assist a boy who had ASD (very hf) in our children's church. He had some attention and behaviour issues.

I devised a system whereby he had a sheet of paper for each week, with each session of children's church listed. So 'worship' 'activity1' 'game 1'.....For each session he could get up to 3 points. 3 points for following the rules of the session and joining in, mostly. 2 points for needing reminders but trying to join in sometimes. 1 point for needing full support but trying. 0 points for refusing to join in or being disruptive.

Obviously, there was a consideration made for his needs and the demands of the activity.

He was motivated by stickers, so the points converted to stickers for each session. The stickers were awarded at each session end, and he was shown his chart and praised when doing really well, or reminded that he still had time to improve if doing less well.

Finally, if he got over a certain number of stickers, then he got to choose a small treat (provided by his parents in a box). He also got the sweet that all the other children got. If he didn't get enough stickers, he only got the sweet that the other children got (criteria: turn up for church).

It worked for him. He loved getting 3 stickers, so was motivated by it.

porridgeLover Mon 25-Feb-13 12:26:06

grin at supplying the pencils!

I always feel that if I have a problem, that it is better to arrive with a suggestion as to how it could be fixed rather than throwing the problem in someone else's lap. It gives me more influence over the solution and I seem willing to work with them IYSWIM?

So having a template, and saying that you envisage 'something like this, though obviously, school, you will want to have your own headings (lick, lick) but I thought this would be a good place to start'. That way, you are influencing them, but they take ownership of moving it forward (how's that for school-speak?)

StarlightMcKenzie Mon 25-Feb-13 12:03:50

Yes. That's excellent and helpful. Thank you. I think I want a bit more information than 'fine' as I have no idea what Ds does at school and suspect 'fine' will always be ticked in line with their expectations rather than mine.

I can see roughly where a tick box or colour code might work though. Not for being 'naughty and good' but rather whether he needed support or not iyswim.

Thank you. You're really helping me to think things through.

I was reluctant to make a template and take responsibility for copying and adding pages as it looks like I'm telling them what to do, but actually I kind of am (well making a request anyway) so perhaps I'll just do that to reduce their workload. I'll also even supply the pencils.

porridgeLover Mon 25-Feb-13 11:55:45

Star, if I read your OP correctly, the SaLT suggested this system and also suggested that teachers should be familiar with it.
Would SaLT have evidence re it's efficacy , even if it's of the 'I am a SaLT and I have used it effectively in X number of cases'. Also is it possible that the school are not familiar with the system and it's rationale so are less likely to comply with it?

While school may not feel that his behaviour is anything they cant cope with. it's not really the issue is it? We all have different standards of behaviour that we expect and if he's not being polite or flexible, then that's something to work on.

Especially, if it's being commented on by others. School need to be aware of that.

If school are less than willing, I would agree about modifying it, in order to support them using the system. I might go further than asking questions that can be answered with a 'Fine' 'Acceptable' or other neutral answer. How about using a tick-box even....figure out 3 behaviour goals you want to aim for (say, not talking over teacher in class, having school work organised appropriately, appropriate group work) and having teacher tick the yes/no/needs to try harder/improving box.

(Really hope I've understood the thrust of your question?)

StarlightMcKenzie Mon 25-Feb-13 08:55:25

DS' school is having some trouble with his behaviour. It isn't something they consider to be a problem as it is within the normal realms of what they are used to having, but I have raised it as an issue that I want to be addressed. I am also anxious that I have been finding out about incidents from the parents of the children in his class. DS tells me absolutely nothing about school.

When I raised this, the SALT suggested a behaviour book, where each teacher (different one for each lesson) wrote in a couple of positive things at the end of the lesson, and frequently (though not always) something that could be improved. They suggested this as it is a system that all the teachers are familiar with.

However, what I have been getting home is a book with a 'morning' comment (pretty neutral i.e. ds painted a frog) a lunch time comment and an afternoon comment. On questioning, these were done at the end of the day by his TA. I get no comments about improvement behaviours.

I have spoken to the head of house and they have explained that the system has been adapted as they have felt that ds cannot access the system as it was originally explained to me. I strongly disagree, plus I feel it has many benefits for enabling me to support ds with the areas that he is struggling and have insight into the aspects of school that he is doing well and enjoying.

In addition I'm upset that they haven't started with the full system and scaled back, rather than just go in with low expectations. They have said that ds would not be able to access a discussion with the teacher at the end of each lesson. However, I feel a discussion at the end of the lesson he has just had is a lot more accessible than at the end of the day.

I have a meeting shortly with the school and want to suggest that they trial the full system. However, how would I evidence the benefits to ds/us. What data might I be able to take that shows he is accessing the system (or not of course).

DS also has what started out as an interactive diary, but is not just a plain piece of paper with 3 questions on it that often I have to change in order to give him any chance of answering. I would be happy to turn the comments from the behaviour book into questions and reduce the staff time required to do both, so incorporating the behaviour book into an interactive diary system might be sensible.

Any ideas?

Sorry it's so long.

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