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Here some suggested organisations that offer expert advice on SN.

Back from meeting, Star, Agnes, Keep, Maria and others

(110 Posts)
claw2 Thu 10-Jan-13 11:55:39

Room full of people this time, about 10.

Basically, they are offering home tuition now, 5 hours, tutor available immediately. But ds would have to stay on roll at this school.

CAMHS are saying if i home ed, seen as ds doesnt have anxiety/self harm when not attending school. They dont see what they can offer. They would make referral to medical needs for home tuition, if i want them to, then stay involved.

SW is saying ss will be involved long term, passed to another team (she would tell me which team later) to ensure that all of ds's needs are met.

Meeting was TAC, is that the same as CIN?

StarlightMcKenzie Thu 10-Jan-13 15:10:40

SW being involved long term might sound like a threat, but there are probably a host of other agencies 'involved long term' that you don't even know about, taking tax payers money for having your ds on their 'caseload'.

In itself, it means nothing, and you still don't have to answer their questions, have them at your meetings or let them into your home.

AgnesDiPesto Thu 10-Jan-13 15:11:31

If you get a statement - and few schools will want him without - then at that point you can name any school - you do not have to name the one currently at - and LA has to send the proposed statement to the other schools you request.

I agree its probably due to financial reasons in that schools are now being made to pay for their failures by having to pay for alternative provision out of their budget.

I suppose as still on roll then for SA current school and CAMHS will be asked to do reports for SA, so you will get a report from CAMHS one way or the other. School's report will be interesting given LA now conceded medical needs!

In meantime do not get too bothered whether he is fit to go back or not. They know you do not want him back at this school. They know you want to take time to consider advice via SA and visit placements. Whoever is paying for the home tuition (which may be current school) may want to hasten his return but frankly it may cost school more to have him back with high level of 1:1 out of their budget than it does for him to be at home with tutor. Its completely reasonable to wait until SA complete before choosing next placement on basis he cannot risk another failure.

Good news is home tutor may be supportive / see some of learning barriers / OT needs / SALT needs etc - even if there is no anxiety there are still ASD needs.

Another sw team could mean disabled childrens team sw. You never know!

CAMHS are also probably trying not to be dumped with lead professional status. You should refuse school being lead professional / key worker given past conflict.

Who else can be the lead prof? EP?

If CAMHS drop out then does that matter? They haven't backed you clearly and may be better to have no camhs advice at next tribunal on placement than wishy washy / unhelpful advice. You will have your indep EP - anyone else? SALT? OT?

The LA are in tricky position - if he is out of school they can say he will be fine back in mainstream but have to explain to tribunal why failed twice at that level already and have now had to concede on anxiety etc. If he goes back to mainstream and it goes wrong again then they have no chance refusing specialist. It would be as much of a risk for LA to put him back in this school as you. If he self harmed again it would be game over for them.

CAMHS will need to become involved once he moves into a new placement ie to manage transition - unless of course he was transiting into a school which had its own psych support / transition service! I sort of agree there is no basis for CAMHS to be involved until the point he is actually going back. When you get to that point you can argue cost saving of your choice of school as the transition process / psych support will be included in school package.

StarlightMcKenzie Thu 10-Jan-13 15:14:52

'They didnt say nothing to offer as such (that was me typing for quickness!) just their plan would have to be reassessed as above. I will be seeing them Monday to discuss.'

Claw There is more they can do. Has he not regressed, even at home? Are you not sleeping with him, battling with food and leaving the house? Are these not as a result of his lost trust in you for going along with stupid opinions?

They need work too. I think a plan returning him to school will need to START with 6 months of him 'stablising' wrt the basics and on his general self-esteem and trust of professionals due to their having let him down. I think CAHMS have a huge role to play here and I would insist they did.

StarlightMcKenzie Thu 10-Jan-13 15:18:17

'Also seems that SS is stepping down now, rather then stepping up. SW ask someone to take the 'lead' as SS would not continue being the 'lead agency'

So to which 'team' its being passed, i dont know.'

Two things. 1) The new team is 'probably' disabled children's team, which are pretty useless but you can keep them out of your life by asking for something.

2) SW asked for someone to take the lead. WRT TAC, that can be you. You just have to write to them and say 'I am taking the lead role of key worker for my ds'.

Claw, can you see, you are winning this? slowly.

StarlightMcKenzie Thu 10-Jan-13 15:24:25

'When you get to that point you can argue cost saving of your choice of school as the transition process / psych support will be included in school package. '

Ah yes. Very good point. Adding the cost of CAHMS support for transition when the time comes.

StarlightMcKenzie Thu 10-Jan-13 15:39:37

So, if you get CAHMS to put in writing that DS will need their involvement (or psych help) when he begins school again, you can put that into the statement in parts 2 and 3.

KeepOnKeepingOn1 Thu 10-Jan-13 15:50:14

If DS has home tuition, the EP that sees him for SA will see him during a tutoring session and speak to his tutor just like in a school. The lea tutor will be seen as a more credible witness (by the lea) than you or an indi tutor but is far more likely to be more on your side than the school.

I think claw needs to stop fighting atm. She has got what she wanted for now - SA and medically authorised absence. It's a long battle and you need to pace yourself and recognise and celebrate when you have won one skirmish. Winning SA and medically authorised absence will impact positively on the chances of winning further along the line. Now is the time that it is safe to ignore SS.

What would be the cost (not financial) of registering DS at another school? You can do this without a statement and so without the school commenting on whether it could meet his needs. As he has not been excluded and does not have a statement there should be no restrictions. It does not matter that they are not able to meet his needs because they can't be any worse than the school he is registered at. You do not need any more desire for DS to actually attend a new school than you have desire for him to attend his old school. Same diff.
Hopefully you will get what you want and it will be irrelevant.

DS1 is no longer at his old primary school and he has never been to the secondary at which he is registered but it does not matter in a negative way at appeal - if anything it reduces the number of witnesses who would say 'all is fine, we can meet his needs' at tribunal.

bochead Thu 10-Jan-13 17:00:50

In my humble experience 2 failed mainstream placements + a period of state funded special provision otherwise than at school = Tribunal Win.

Tribunal Win = SS CP backs off for good (as a family court judge would ask WHY the hell the poor parent had to go thru Tribunal process for SS to recognise the bleeding obvious! None of these people want to risk their own professional accreditation when push comes to shove).

In real terms you are now free to home educate as you see fit for a while, utilising the funded tutor for 5 hours a week as respite.(get the housework done in another room?)

Everyone KNOWS your child isn't going back to that school, the school role stuff is about funding, which I always gnore as not being my problem.

Get all that was offered in the meeting in writing, before anyone notices that you are ahead and tries to rescind on their promises for Gawd's sake.

It would be helpful if you had some idea of the school you would like to name in part 4 of the eventual statement in case Tribunal ask, so in your shoes I'd do some research as others have already suggested. This is just info for your back pocket though at this point and not be acted upon just yet. (keep your powder dry!).

I know it doesn't feel like it but if you can step back a little you'll see you've just won a significant battle. Enjoy the calm now while it lasts for a while. It is a marathon and you need to save your mental strength for the battles yet to come.

Focus your efforts on finding your son under all that anxiety for now, he's still in there somewhere. Also take a little bit of time to just enjoy being his Mum & on family life for a while. You've been living under a state of seige for a while now, and that's not healthy for any family unit.

claw2 Thu 10-Jan-13 17:44:15

Update..........HE EWO has just visited, at last someone with a bit of common sense.

She is saying take the home tuition for NOW, then it doesnt work out for whatever reason then HE, in the meantime look at other schools, so if/when ds is ready to go back, you either put him in another school (she gave me the name of SS in this area), you can transfer him to medical need unit or HE, will be the options.

Apparently she was also telling me when SW, transfers to another team, the whole process starts again from square one, initial assessment etc, etc.

Got to go shopping now, will check back later and read through thread properly smile

bochead Thu 10-Jan-13 17:51:44

The ONLY reason I don't home ed right now is that DS would lose any and all access to state SALT and OT services.

Stay with the tutor for now, 5 hours a week isn't much in the scheme of things but it keeps you in the system just enough to be able to access Cahms etc.

I wholeheartedly agree with the EWO re other schools.

StarlightMcKenzie Thu 10-Jan-13 17:54:38


This thread has cheered me up no end. I'm telling you because it is probably hard for you to be cheery when you have simply achieved an aspect of your childs entitlement. It shouldn't be the struggle it has been so make sure that you never downplay to yourself the significant achievements. You ought to be VERY proud of yourself.

AgnesDiPesto Thu 10-Jan-13 18:15:09

Yippee! Who knows in a months time you may be surrounded by positive, helpful, truthful, professionals rather than poisonous, lying numpties.

I am sure they are doing all this quickly / bringing 10 people not because they think you are dodgy and need ganging up on, but because as Boc says they know this is not going to play out well at next tribunal. They have to now try and make amends before the tribunal bollocks them for leaving a child out of school with no provision who has been on sw caseload for months.

Maybe they will even offer you some respite or leisure activities for your DS eg 1:1 swim lessons funding etc.

And if home tutor does not work, well that just more proof you were right. In some ways if bring in tutor before DS is ready and have to build that up slowly then that will help your case.

Our disabled childrens team sw is lovely. Pro ABA. Pro SS. They see what happens in adult SS when children don't get good intervention early on so many of them are supportive - even if only in private. The sw has told me if we ever lose ABA they will massively increase our respite package (because at moment ds has ABA in hols and until 5.30 each day) and in effect derail the LA argument they can do it cheaper.

I agree you have called their bluff and won this battle for now. Time to regroup, take a breather and be proud of yourself.

StarlightMcKenzie Thu 10-Jan-13 18:21:41

Yes, but claw has to be aware that new sensible tutor has been 'pre-warned' that claw is a nutter and that he has to try and establish a relationship with her in order to backstab enable the LA to meet the child's needs in the way they see fit.

I'm not saying this tutor will do that, and, quite possibly he will be very helpful, but at the moment he will not have an accurate picture of why he is there.

KeepOnKeepingOn1 Thu 10-Jan-13 18:48:22

Star - reorganisation has meant that DS1's tutor changed - into a stuff and nonsense, we are all on the spectrum monster. After one day I spoke to her, after 2 days I spoke to her supervisor and then the tutor was gone. Can you imagine complaining about a CT and as a result they were gone - immediately? No need to persuade. Now DS1 has a more suitable tutor. The 'good' thing about having a child with ASD means that tutors can be dismissed because they don't fit - for whatever reason. Why - because if the tutor cannot be accepted the child will not integrate.

AgnesDiPesto Thu 10-Jan-13 19:27:17

Star - agreed they may be horrible
but there is always the vague chance they may be decent
Sometimes those who have to pick up others failures are more supportive of not creating a worse disaster

AtoZandbackagain Thu 10-Jan-13 19:35:01

Good news Claw - it's great when you finally meet 'the sensible one' but as warned by those above - don't automatically trust them It coukd be Good Cop/Bad Cop. grin

StarlightMcKenzie Thu 10-Jan-13 19:35:31

I'm not saying he will be horrible, but will come with preconceived ideas based on arse-covering bollocks given by the person who commissioned him iyswim.

Hopefully he will be autonomous and come to his own conclusions. I think tutors are fairly good at that since they HAVE to build a positive relationship with the family and just CAN'T bully them iyswim.

However, when I removed ds from school, I continued with the senior ASD SALT that I had battled to get, who did sneaky rushed assessments without consent and then announced a week before tribunal that she was standing against us, and did, and was their best witness.

It wasn't a surprise however, and despite it all we didn't lose because of anything she did (even though she was vile), - but it is something to keep at the back of your mind.

mariammama Thu 10-Jan-13 19:38:29

Tutors are usually sensible. And if not, you can ask for a swap. You could also, as suggested above, look at

I wouldn't worry about the tutor being a LA lackey. Any public sector post where the professionals get to negotiate their hours and be semi-autonomous tends to attract the awkward squad more independent minded staff.

mariammama Thu 10-Jan-13 19:39:28

Aargh. 'Look at 1-1 swim lessons, and perhaps accessing instrumental tuition through the county music service too'

claw2 Thu 10-Jan-13 20:28:19

Agree it is a win! 2013 has been brilliant so far, who said 13 is unlucky! SA win, now this smile ive also managed to pay off solicitor today, so no more montly installments.

All seems rush, rush on everyones part too. HE EWO was here within a few hours of the meeting. SW wants to come tommorow to finish her involvement and pass it on to 'new team'. CAMHS appointment Monday and EP assessing ds in 2 weeks for SA, not at home, in a centre.

A-Z CAMHS are fence sitters, they never want to give educational recommendations, but i suspect behind scenes they have been life savers too. They know me and ds well, from previously. School were telling SW i was fabricating ds's difficulties and she was buying it. CAMHS have stepped in and said no ds's anxieties are very real and school are the cause of them. So SW has proved helpful by pushing them, otherwise we would still be 'we havent finished assessing'

So tomorrow i need to phone medical needs unit, find out training of tutor, and find out whether its time based or not.

and find out from CAMHS exactly what is on offer, either way. They usually 'side step' everything 'havent finished assessments' then 'we are making a plan' 4 weeks later still waiting for that 'plan' in writing. The know that ds's 'issues' are caused by lack of support in school and they are waiting for someone else to solve the problem.

claw2 Thu 10-Jan-13 20:47:23

And as for 'lead', i was told had to be lead 'professional'.

2 people from CAMHS said they dont take 'lead professional'

So left we had HE EWO, SS EIT (another sw, this is the disability team, i think) person from LA, school nurse, medical needs centre, ASD advisory

SW and school, school couldnt take because i might be HE, SW didnt want.

So it was left for 'lead' to be decided at next meeting

AgnesDiPesto Thu 10-Jan-13 20:55:49

oh yes the familiar meetings about meetings
how they manage to spend thousands without actually providing any services
what are they intending to lead exactly?

Googled EIT and it came up as early intervention team and in council i looked at talked about addressing problems early / being involved for short periods and operating at legal level below childrens social work team.

Try googling social work early intervention team + your LA

So doesn't sound like its got any speciality in disabled children - more like problem families!

They seem determined to say its the family not the child who is 'complex' and not provide proper services.

Still when EIT person comes you can ask if disabled child services / respite come within her remit wink

StarlightMcKenzie Thu 10-Jan-13 21:02:57

Oh ffs. Tell them all that the only person who has done anything for your child or led anything has been you. And where in god's name is it written that the parent can't be the lead professional, and why for god's sake are you not a professional. You have certainly been more professional than most of them.

er, no don't.

Of course no-one wants to do it. No one wants to take responsibility for the shite not be compelled to take your phonecalls.

When I announced that I was taking on the role, the whole meeting room sighed with relief. Yours should have done the same if they had any sense.

StarlightMcKenzie Thu 10-Jan-13 21:08:59

'what are they intending to lead exactly?'

Yes. This ^

My leadership, when 'appointed' consisted of cancelling all multi-disciplinary meetings and meeting individual services ad hoc for specific and defined outcomes.

I remember sitting in a meeting with at my ds' school after lost tribunal and the HT saying at the end 'right, - shall we put a date in our diaries for the next meeting?' and I was able to say 'to discuss what exactly? - why don't we just - er - not, and I'll let you know if I feel another needs to be organised. Again they were all quite happy with that.

StarlightMcKenzie Thu 10-Jan-13 21:33:25

Ask the EIT person if they are going to be renamed LIT any time soon.

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