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Please help, older dd has hurt baby dd, what will happen now?

(29 Posts)
used2bthin Wed 17-Oct-12 09:31:07

I feel such a failure, dd1 has been violent at school and towards baby dd2 for a while, in fact last week I was at the GP with a bad back caused by dd1 kicking me. She is six with severely disordered speech and lang amongst other things.

I had already asked the dr for PCAMHS referral which is done, I asked about help in the mean time and other than speak to health visitor there isnt much so I have been trying different strategies, really making sure there isnt chance to hurt the baby but today she dropped an ornament on her head deliberately. Thank god the baby seems ok but we are off to the dr to get her checked out and I feel they will think I havent managed to keep her safe. Dropped dd1 at school and explained to them in private that although she had a bad start I have to bring her in otherwise she will think hurt baby=day off-she has tried this before. Genuinely dd1 does not understand the consequences sad but she was worried by my reaction-however as we got close to school she tried to grab dd2's face in the pram so I had to carry her to keep her safe.

Anyone had this? What will the GP do?

zzzzz Wed 17-Oct-12 09:44:44

Honk Honk


Oh poor all of you. I have no idea what the Dr will do, but I'm guessing you are going to have to step up all safety stuff. How totally exhausting for you.

I carried mine everywhere with me and had safe places in each room. But it was never easy or particularly brilliant.

Honk Honk

sickofsocalledexperts Wed 17-Oct-12 09:52:23

The only thing that worked for my son's aggression was ABA (a behavioural therapy). There basically has to be an immediate consequence to violence, and it has to be the same every time ANSI something she really doesn't like. Is there a particular thing that would work? Try a website called ABA tutor finder for tutors in your area. You just can't be there every second - she has to learn to edit her own behaviour. Good luck,

used2bthin Wed 17-Oct-12 10:09:07

Thanks for replies, feeling so sick about how bad it could have been. Re safe places can you describe? Only because I am struggling with what would be safe as she tips the crib up and now with throwing stuff? Maybe a travel cot in living room?

Would really like to look into ABA. Would the GP be abl to refer me?

used2bthin Wed 17-Oct-12 10:22:06

I am worried the doctor will think we need social services? Or just do nothing, not sure which is worse!

Dev9aug Wed 17-Oct-12 11:35:55

would a playpen help you at all. you can leave the baby in it while you are out of the room. Playpen

zzzzz Wed 17-Oct-12 11:58:24

Safe places are very much dependant on babies age and your house.

Travel cots are brilliant, room dividers, play pens, furniture, cat nets, cardboard.

Make areas the baby is not allowed, tents, dens for dd, it will help her to have her places.

Always take baby or dd with you everywhere (it's not forever, pace yourself, YOU CAN DO day you will crap alone). grin

Focus hard on dd's behaviour (I know you are already I am not a carrot). Reward good behaviour. So start remembering to tell her how nicely she's played.

Ds is language disordered, can I suggest something? Get a clear plastic container (ideal is tennis ball tube) take tennis balls out, put them in a basket, every time she is good for 15 mins you tell her "beautiful sistering" give her a ball to put in the tube, every time she is bad you remove a ball, once full she gets a treat (mine was red box raisins). Keep the tube (or tubes) on a high display area (top of fridge?), when Daddy comes home show off her prowess. Do not share this method with school till its been working for months, they will only trash you work.

If social services were involved they would see a hard working loving Mum, with more challenges than most.

Honk honk.

used2bthin Wed 17-Oct-12 12:34:07

Thank you, the play pen looks ideal although we don't have enough space.

zzzz thank you, I love love the tennis ball idea, she would love watching it as has a thing about balls. I will buy them today I am that keen! Was thinking marbles in a jar but I like that more.

What scared me today is that I would never leave them for a second and am hyper alert to her being anywhere near (am having to pretend not to be of course or it just tempts her!) and today was so sudden and such a combination of circumstances-dd is etreme;y stressed over school however which may change soon.

So the GP just said make another appointment with the GP who did our CAHMS referral but dd2 is ok just have to check her every couple of hours over night-awful but coukld have been so much worse.

And I had a call from our statementing officer dealing with our mainstream schools request for more hours one to one. She very kindly told me that dd1s p levels indicate her social and emotional level is two to three years and that the panel, unusually have decided dd1 would be better in a special school. Which is what I have been saying so it is a weight off my shoulders and at least some good news at last. What a day!

starfishmummy Wed 17-Oct-12 12:44:32

Good news on the special school.

zzzzz Wed 17-Oct-12 12:53:08

Tennis balls are much better than marbles as the baby can't eat them (unless it I unusually gifted) wink

Let's face it the premade tube and the replace ability is helpful. (if it turns out to be a rubbish plan at least you will have balls).

SS sounds like things going the way you want. Yay!

Drink tea, eat biscuits, you're doing just fine.

used2bthin Wed 17-Oct-12 13:01:29

Thank you, kind words and very helpful. Hoping GP will get on to CAHMS and say its urgent but not sure if that will make a difference. Emotional wreck today, can't even motivate myself to sort the house out and need a food shop but biscuits will definately be on my list! My mum has offered to come and play with dd1 after shool so at least there will be two of us which is basically what needs to happen. When I feel up to it I will write down what happened today to show the GP.

Yes am releived at the ss thing-will be devastated to leave the lovely school we have moved to be near to but I know that dd needs more. And to have the panel decide that without me there is reassuring in that my feeling that she needs ss is backed up by people who often try and dissuade parents from taking that route.

ouryve Wed 17-Oct-12 13:02:04

DS1 used to be like this with DS2, but there's only 2.5 years between them.

I kept DS2 with me as much as possible - waited until DH was home from work before starting on dinner - took DS2 into the bathroom or kitchen with me in his carseat if I had to.

Despite being careful, I still had to rescue DS2 from cushions all over his face, being sat on, being poked hard etc etc etc. It's pretty much impossible to be in between them 100% of the time without breeding even more resentment.

I did make sure that there were nice things for DS1 to do when i was busy with DS2. When DS2 was asleep, I tried to do nice things with DS1, like baking, building stuff together etc.

I still can't leave them alone together, most of the time, 6 years on, btw.

used2bthin Wed 17-Oct-12 16:03:34

Hi sounds very similar! I suspect I won't be able to leave mine for a long time yet too. Worst of it is we have moved here to be near the school dd1 now won't be at and as its an expensive area compared to the place we could have moved to , we've only got two bedrooms. They are good sized bedrooms but it is now apparent that the girls will not be able to share as planned so dd2 will be in with us till we move Iq think. Feel stupid not predicting it but dd1 had reporsts done last year before starting school and had no challenging behaviour-the reports say how calm she is considering her difficulties! And this is where we are a year on. I hope the right school helps a bit.

Ineedalife Wed 17-Oct-12 16:33:14

I had a playpen for Dd2 used, Dd1 was 7 when she was born and couldnt be left alone with her. I used to block the room off with the playpen and have Dd2 at one end and Dd1 at the other.

Not ideal I know but when I needed to cook tea or something it was the only way. Once Dd2 could sit up I used to pop her in the highchair while I cooked.

She had time to explore in the day when Dd1 was at school so I didnt feel to bad about restricting her movements in the early evening.

I had no choice anyway because Dd1 probably would have really hurt her if i hadnt.

Be kind to yourself.

Glad to hear about the school and good lucksmile

hazeyjane Wed 17-Oct-12 19:03:34

Used2, sorry to hear things are hard atm.

I don't know where you are, but we have one of those playpens, and although they are big, they can be unfolded and used to cut off a section of room, which could be the safe space? Anyway if you want to borrow it long term and are local (we are in Wilts) then pm me.

used2bthin Wed 17-Oct-12 19:48:45

Ineedalife it scares me so much, keep looking at dd2 thinking how differently today could have ended. Thank you and confined is probably the way to go i think, am also so glad she is at school in the day-worried about days off and holidays now but am lucky I have family nearby. I am worried about dd1 throwing things at her now though and can't think how to avoid it...

hazeyjane that is such a kind offer. I will PM you.

used2bthin Thu 18-Oct-12 20:03:54

OK health visitor rang today. I am out tomorrow so said no to her visit and amnowvpanicking that she'll think I'm being uncooperative(I find her hard work tbh). Chatted on the phone though and she has been asked to speak to me over the incident yesterday and has also been in touch with CAHMS and sent them a letter to say its a safeguarding concern and will they see us sooner. They are meeting next week to discuss referrals so will let us know how soon they can see us.

I asked for the CAHMS referral but am now terrified by the safeguarding thing-what if they think I am not able to keep dd2 safe? I want both of them safe and happy!

mumtoaandj Thu 18-Oct-12 20:18:53

i feel for you my 2 are 3.5 years difference between them and ds1 is very rough with ds2, i had to carry ds2 in a sling for the first year of his life. ds1 has also seen CAHMS when he was 4.5 but after about 6 visits they decided he was just immature and left me to my own devices. It has been hard work. I cant really help but have kind of been there and am still there.
personally a playpen was no good for us because he would launch himself over it to get to baby or throw missiles, a sling was the only answer- which probably didnt help because then it looked like i loved baby more because i was holding baby more...but swings and round abouts!

Lougle Thu 18-Oct-12 20:31:15

Ok, you've had the love and cuddles from other posters (I echo them) but I've been there, and this could help:

1. I can't remember how your DD's fine motor skills are. But, if they are still a little weak, then stairgates. Everywhere. I had stairgates in the lounge, hall, porch, kitchen, stairs.

2. Nice as they are - all ornaments, gone. Tonight if possible. Nothing that can be used as a missile or cosh within reach. It's sad, but I had to accept that our house would not look 'cozy' and 'pretty' because my ornament was her weapon.

3. Get a bouncy chair. They are fab, because they move. If you are in the kitchen cooking, baby can be in the kitchen with you. If you are in the lounge, ditto.

4. Playpen - not for DD1, but for the baby. Moses basket goes in the playpen, which is up against a wall. The Moses basket is as close to the wall as possible. It won't stop a determined DD1, but it will stop any impulsive lash out, and it will slow her, giving you more reaction time.

5. Changing mat and gear behind the sofa in a (secure) box. That way, you don't have to leave them when baby does that explosive up the back poo.

6. Welcome the input of SS. They will not take your baby. They will take you seriously that you can't keep them both safe at the same time. We have support 5 days per week after school (through various services) because DD1 was attacking her sisters. I worried that they'd decide to take the younger two into care. But they didn't. They recognised that I needed an extra pair of hands to keep them all safe.

7. Hugs!!! It's horrible. It's not how it should be.

8. Special School! Wow. Be ready to see a totally different DD1 in a few months grin

used2bthin Thu 18-Oct-12 21:26:08

Thank you mumtoaandj it is so hard to keep the baby safe without reinforcing the jealousy issue isn't it-my dd1 also likes to wake the baby up by slamming a door or shrieking, so sad because it means she gets less time with me when I can focus just on her.

Lougle, [flowers]hello I was thinking of starting a thread I wanted to share the special school news! It really is good news, I have been ringing round today to see if anywhere has spaces but think I will stick with our local one as there were children I could really see dd1 relating to and the transition would be smoother even if it takes longer and the head is offering some joint working in the mean time.

I was wondering does your dd's ss support you with behaviour stuff? Hoping yes as am hoping ours will too. I was given a bumbo today so dd2 sat in that in the kitchen while I made the tea which did help.

It is a two person job with them both tbh its so hard to prevent things but yes, thinking of it as slowing her down makes it sound more manageable. Going to get a cotbed or very sturdy cot asap as dd1 tried to tip the crib. And playpen or similar downstairs then bumbo in that and stairgates are a great plan esp as we will need them eventually anyway. Her fine motor skills are very odd-she struggles holding a pencil and drops everything she holds but can do puzzles and lego very very well. But they would alert me and slow her down.

Tring not to panic about safeguarding thing, just keep thinking of horror stories in the press but I know that I have asked for this help, and been asking since before it got out of hand and been trying all sorts so fingers crossed they will help not make life more stressful.

Lougle Thu 18-Oct-12 21:35:22

Yes, I am very lucky, because our Special School has 'SHIP' which is the 'School Home Integration Project'. Basically, someone from the school who works with the child will come to the house, talk about what you are struggling with behaviourally. Then together you look at the factors which cause the behaviour, what the 'aim' of the behaviour is, and what you can do about it.

They never instruct, but always aim to share what they would do at school about it. Often, they will come up with an idea which can transition from home to school. For example, DD1 was great in school, but aggressive at home. The TA came up with an idea of having a picture of me with a sad face, and one with a happy face. Each day, I sent in a picture from home which related to how DD1's behaviour made me feel. She had to tell them (as best she could) why I sent the picture in. She loved taking the happy picture in (huge congratulations and praise at school) and hated taking the sad one in (no punishment, but simply an 'oh dear, DD1. That's sad.')

The SHIP team will do anything that is tricky. So some children may go shopping when SHIP are with them, or for a haircut, or whatever the biggest issue is at the time.

I know plenty of special schools do this. Another SS I know of has 'Jigsaw' which is exactly the same system.

used2bthin Thu 18-Oct-12 22:07:30

SHIP sounds brilliant. The school has jigsaw I think! I am going to check it was that one but when I looked at the ratings of various schools earlier I think I saw it next to it.

It will just be nice for me to speak to a school who have seen it all with behaviour, I am so sad about leaving the current school but I know it is the right thing and so hope it makes life easier.

zzzzz Thu 18-Oct-12 23:39:36

Remembered this morning. Bells! Buy cheap ones from haberdasherers. Sew onto both dd's clothes or shoes (so you can hear where she is which becomes like extra eyes) and hang in bunches on doors or playpens so you know if someone is on the move (wink). My children LOVED having bells. We made bracelets too.

used2bthin Fri 19-Oct-12 11:29:30

What a good idea! dd1 hates anything on her but does like bells so may tolerate that.

Feeling so much more positive about this today and it is because of this thread-I am actually doing something about it rather than just feeling hopeless. Told my mum about theplaypen idea and she said oh yes I thought it was dangerous leaving her on the floor, we always had plapens for you lot hmm she could have suggested it!

Am also off to get stair gates and look at sturdy cots,need a really heavy one that dd1 can't tip.

mariammma Fri 19-Oct-12 23:01:37

You could put a bell in that awful hidden-toy hole in an old pair of Clarks shoes

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