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Friday night thread....yes I know it's early!!! :(

(85 Posts)
Badvoc Fri 28-Sep-12 13:14:45

Sooooo.
Been a bit of a shitty week casa Badvoc.
Dh is in the US and will be til next Thursday.
Ds1 is doing really well, another head teacher award yesterday for his writing smile
Heis also coping well with dh being away.
Ds2 however....
I realise I am going to sound a it mad but it's like deja vu...
Ds2 has suddenly become very distressed going to pre school. We had no idea why. Manager says no problems.
(Ds1 was bullied by the same child from nursery to year 2 and had a horrific effect on him.)
Took ds2 to a messy play session at pre school yesterday afternoon and...omg...
A child was so awful to ds2. Really singled him out. Hurt him, took all the things he was paying with....was a nightmare.
So.
Am pretty sure he is the reason ds2 is now so unhappy.
What should I do?
I am in bits.
It's all coming back...the same feelings, the same sick dread in the pit of my stomach...
Didn't sleep last night and can't eat sad
Wwyd?

shoppingbagsundereyes Fri 28-Sep-12 13:18:19

Oh dear Badvoc. Have you spoken to the pre school leader? That shouldn't be allowed to happen. I know lots of people may disagree with me but I've have taught both my dcs that we ask for help first but if someone keeps being mean to you then you have to shout 'leave me alone' and if that fails then a swift push is ok. Ds was always a whacker so we were usually the ones dragging him away and apologising for his behaviour but dd can be too passive so I've talked to her a lot about standing up for herself.

Badvoc Fri 28-Sep-12 13:21:40

It's not the actions of the child so much as the fact no one (not his mum, CM or pre school manager stepped in) and I include myself in that.
I was just so....shocked I suppose.
I have talked to him abut telling an adult if someone is mean to him (and ds2 is not perfect btw) but he doesn't.
Ds1 was the same.

shoppingbagsundereyes Fri 28-Sep-12 13:35:22

I think you need to go the same group group next week and if the child is unkind again do a loud 'no snatching thank you sweetheart' or 'please don't push, that's not kind'. I do this a lot, make sure I use my kindest voice and sweetest smile so the other parent can't get in a huff but I speak loud enough to make sure everyone hears. That also models for your ds ways of getting someone to leave you alone. Did you try with ds1 little role plays? I play playmobil sometimes with dd and play the scenario of one child taking toys and the other one shouting 'stop snatching' for example. Mind you, I may have gone too far because she is in danger of being a bit of a snitch now smile
Kids seem to have a instinct for other kids who are going to allow them to get away with being mean. I taught for ten years and while of course the bully is the one at fault, victims of bullying are almost always kids that are too passive.

zzzzz Fri 28-Sep-12 13:44:20

badvoc is it the same preschool?

Do you work?

If the answers at yes and no, pull him out and search for somewhere that shares your expectations of behaviour.

If it is a Different preschool, have a chat with them and IF you think they will change their attitude to thuggery stay on but watch carefully.

moosemama Fri 28-Sep-12 13:45:06

Is there an alternative pre-school Badvoc? Is this a 3 year-old nursery place? (Sorry confused as pre-school round here is for 2 year olds, then they go to nursery at 3.)

Nowhere near the same, but dd has been bitten twice this week by the same girl at her nursery. Once outside before we went in and then again during the session. The girl concerned is the same one that used to beeline dd at every toddler group and take toys off her, push her etc. Dd is very good at sharing and doesn't really understand that others might not be so kind, so never stands up for herself or ask for help from the teachers.

I went to see the teacher before nursery yesterday and told her that, whilst I understand these things happen with children sometimes, I wanted her to be aware that it had happened outside, as well as inside nursery and is therefore less likely to have been 'accidental' as the other girl claimed. Imo the relationship between the two needs careful monitoring. She was fine about it, listened to and understood my concerns and said she would keep an eye on the situation - she is an excellent teacher and I trust her to keep to her word. Dd came home yesterday and said they had played a nice game together 'with the teacher' and the other girl was kind, so I think the relationship is now being 'handled'.

There's no way the manager should be ignoring your concerns. I would expect that at the very least they would keep a close eye on the two children and observe their relationship before making their minds up.

That said, we have three boys who have suddenly decided they don't like nursery anymore. All three were screaming the place down when I dropped dd today. sad However, I happen to know the teacher very well, as her dd was born just after mine and her ds is in ds2's class. She is absolutely lovely and amazing with children, same for the HLTA that's also with that nursery group, who had both my boys and they adored her. The boys are just exhausted after a few weeks of going every day, they've had to drop their naps and they are just starting to realise that they have to go every single day. In my experience, boys are often more likely to want to cosy up with Mum at home than go to nursery and some days that's all they want and nothing will persuade them otherwise.

I would say though, that if you are really concerned and your ds is that unhappy then you are best placed to judge whether it's the latter or down to something that's going on at nursery. If you don't have confidence in the staff to listen to your concerns, take them seriously and act on them, then could you perhaps try a different pre-school or even just pull him out until he's a bit older. Not all children are ready for full-on nursery day-in day-out at this age, some do much better if they wait a year and are just that bit older and more able to cope.

Sorry you and your ds are going through this. Ds1 was bullied right through the infants and the start of the Juniors and I know how heartbreaking it is. At this age the staff should be on-top of and handling any sign of intimidating or bullying-type behaviour and actively working with the children to develop and reward appropriate behaviour and relationships.

zzzzz Fri 28-Sep-12 13:46:56

"victims of bullying are almost always kids that are too passive" shock. NOT TRUE

moosemama Fri 28-Sep-12 13:49:07

I like shopping-bags idea as well. I should have done that with dd. She can really stand up for herself with her big brothers, but I failed to teach her properly how to do it with other children for fear of making a scene and ending up being the odd one out at toddler group as well as in the playground at drop-off and pick-up.

I had only really just plucked up the courage to start doing it by the time she started nursery and that was at Stay and Play, so different parents each week, rather than facing the wrath of a clique, iyswim

moosemama Fri 28-Sep-12 13:51:54

zzzz, is right, ds1 was a victim of bullying because he was too easy to provoke, so precisely because he did stand up for himself. The more he stood up for himself, the worse the bullying got.

Different bullies are motivated by different things, some do it to boost their own lack of self-esteem, sadly some just enjoy it. There are a myriad of reasons why they do it and just as many reasons why they single out their victims.

shoppingbagsundereyes Fri 28-Sep-12 13:54:47

Sorry I didn't mean to offend. Just speaking from experience as a head of year 7.

moosemama Fri 28-Sep-12 14:05:26

I think it was the phrase 'too passive', as it implies that the fault lies, at least to some extent with the victim.

If a child's personality is such that they avoid confrontation and prefer a quiet life, that shouldn't be viewed as a fault and they don't deserve to have their life and self-esteem damaged by someone who chooses to pick on them, be it for sport or to boost their own self-esteem.

You did say in your post that the fault is always with the bully, though, so I don't think you meant it the way it read.

I guess bullying is always going to be an emotive subject, especially here, as so many children with SNs are victims at some point in their lives. Of course in the majority of those cases, they are victimised simply for being 'different'.

shoppingbagsundereyes Fri 28-Sep-12 14:12:49

You are right. I didn't mean it like that, just worded it badly. I do think it is worth teaching our children ways of standing up for themselves though and I did a lot of work with bullied 11 yr olds over the years on exactly that.

zzzzz Fri 28-Sep-12 14:14:00

shoppingbags. I find that attitude similar to assigning any responsibility for rape to the victim.

Bullying is caused by the bully, the level of acceptance of the society you are in, NOT courted by the victim.

I don't want to sound preachy or thin skinned because I am actually quite un-PC on the whole, and it makes me feel uncomfortable. Can I ask you to think about it and research a little, without offending?

Your experience is massively coloured by your own opinions on what is behind behaviour and what is socially acceptable. Sometimes something is important enough to revisit.

blush

shoppingbagsundereyes Fri 28-Sep-12 14:18:37

Like I say, I worded it badly. I was trying to get over the point that children need tools to defend themselves. Lots of the children I taught were worried about getting in trouble themselves so would have seen shouting 'no' when a bully did something to them as being naughty. I worked with them on finding an arsenal of tools against bullies so that they had the confidence to get help.

StarlightMcKenzie Fri 28-Sep-12 14:21:10

Hi All,

Badvoc, the sicky pit of stomach feeling will not be a repeat. It won't. You're an experienced warrior now. You'll put it right and see through any bollocks along the way. This is just a signpost for you, but you already know the way. It'll all be put right much faster and more efficiently.

I get ds to shout 'STOP THAT' really loudly. Once he has said it three times, he is allowed to push/whack - whatever. The 'STOP THAT' time is the time that an adult should intervene. Can't say it works yet but it's early days. We practice it loads at home, with me interfering with his game or nudging him.

My news:
DS is having tennis lessons, (as well as having been taken to a football lesson by dh that was interesting apparently). He wasn't meant to, but he wandered into a class and started to join in, and the instructor kept him. He had his second lesson yesterday and was the only one in the class to hit the ball over the net.

I cannot tell you how absolutely over the moon I am.

At ds' school, just today at the big coffee morning thing, I bumped into the school music teacher and on the spot signed ds up to keyboard lessons, taught by the SEN music teacher.

So, trying hard not to think about the money side, - I'm very happy atm.

BTW, I got severely bullied as a child. When raised with the school they informed my mum that I had to learn to run with the hare and the hound. Whatever that meant!? hmm. Basically, I refused to do what people ordered of me, or hand over my dinner money, or whatever, and so got stabbed with needles and had my pencil case set on fire, amongst other things.

I still don't run with the hare and the hound - just in case anyone was in any doubt grin

whatthewhatthebleep Fri 28-Sep-12 14:53:35

would people agree that many bullies, bully because they have 'issues' ...emotional, family, environment and sn...going on for themselves and more understanding and tolerance is appropriate before anyone assumes the child is just plain bloody awful for no reason??....

When we feel the need to raise awareness of a situation for our own child...that we should be highlighting the other child maybe has needs which are not being met too???

I'm not sure we are often mindful about this sort of thing so I thought I would just say this to remind us all smile

AgnesDiPesto Fri 28-Sep-12 14:57:21

Another uneventful week here. Bizarre. We never have uneventful weeks. Am wondering if the demons are circling to unleash utter destruction upon us at annual review. Have still got to write parent report but have been busy organising everyone else to write theirs.
I was bullied at school because I was a quiet, shy, wimp so think the passive argument carries some weight. Although whether 3 year olds can really have the pre meditation to be bullies I am not sure.
Great news about the tennis Star. I am toying with introducing keyboard / piano to DS so let me know how the lessons go. Wish we had a SN music teacher - guess that will have to be me!
Still struggling to find DS swim lessons. I can get 1:1 ones. Council ASD ones (where they have lots of helpers but do stimming and no actual swimming). But can't find anywhere that will let him join in a group lesson with his ABA 1:1 in the pool. All the swim teachers are refusing his 1:1 to be in the pool. Can't understand why - I can only assume its because they think other parents will be annoyed he is getting more attention as they do not disrupt the class at all.
I know we can go for reasonable adjustments but fed up to have another battle. Found the same with riding too, they didn't want him in group lessons and kept shoving us towards 1:1. His behaviour with his 1:1 is practically perfect. He needs / is ready to be in a group. Grrr!

zzzzz Fri 28-Sep-12 15:03:24

I would agree that any attempt to sort out a bullying incident that doesn't involve examining the bully and situation is unlikely to be successful.

While I do think empowering targets/victims to seek help and defuse situations is helpful, I am wary of the idea of an arsenal.....fire with fire is against my underlying ethos.

StarlightMcKenzie Fri 28-Sep-12 15:03:45

We found the same with swimming, although round here even a normal group session without the SN complexities have an 18month waiting list shock.

But basically, the pool instructers refuse point blank to have ds with a support. They insist that he needs 1:1 lessons instead, not matter how much I have tried to explain that actually ds' strength and ability to learn lie predominantly in his imitation skills, and in the imitation of other children. They have said all kinds of crazy things like it would be against health and safety, other parents will not like it etc etc. once one extra adult is in the pool, all the other kids will need one. I could go on. Swimming teachers are odd.

StarlightMcKenzie Fri 28-Sep-12 15:07:00

I'm not sure how I feel about the bullying thing. Since I was bullied by EVERYONE in my year group and the year groups above and below I can only assume that it was something to do with me. Not necessarily anything bad, - but something nonetheless.

But I was in a rough school in a rough part of London in the 80s with a very strict socialist upbringing and absolutely no money to the extent that I never ate dinner but saved my dinner money in order to buy sanitary towels.

StarlightMcKenzie Fri 28-Sep-12 15:07:02

I'm not sure how I feel about the bullying thing. Since I was bullied by EVERYONE in my year group and the year groups above and below I can only assume that it was something to do with me. Not necessarily anything bad, - but something nonetheless.

But I was in a rough school in a rough part of London in the 80s with a very strict socialist upbringing and absolutely no money to the extent that I never ate dinner but saved my dinner money in order to buy sanitary towels.

zzzzz Fri 28-Sep-12 16:00:10

Sorry stAr didn't men to leave you hanging there. Your school sounds awful!

However your ds's school sounds brilliant.
I have two extra children home sick today..... [exhausting!!!!]

TirednessKills Fri 28-Sep-12 16:10:37

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

shoppingbagsundereyes Fri 28-Sep-12 16:25:24

Just picked up ds from school. After 3 1/2 totally incident free weeks at his new school and me just starting to think we hads turned a corner he has hit someone and not coped at all well with being told off for it. Then when his teacher tried to tell me what had happened he sobbed and sobbed so I still haven't heard properly what went on as he was so upset I just felt it was better to get him home. Will get more info on Monday morning but will now stew all weekend sad

alison222 Fri 28-Sep-12 17:12:59

shoppingbags it must be the time now that things start to get to them as they are getting tired and have tried so hard at the start of term. My DS was doing well until yesterday when he retaliated to someone drawing on his book and had a stand up fight in an art class.
Don't take it too much to heart. I have found now that the best thing is to let them calm down completely and then talk to them about what happened as if they are telling you a story and prod for information as necessary.
I don't know about your DS but assume the school is aware he has difficulties and will be making allowances?

Badvoc how horrible for you and your ds2. Still the positive spin is that now you are aware exactly what is wrong and can take steps to correct it. I like the idea of teaching him how to say or shout "stop it". It was something I also had to actively teach DS. it does help - at least to draw attention to him so that an adult can intervene.

I have spent the day with a friend in hospital, having taken her to have chemo. She is so brave about it all, and had an ice pack on her head throughout the treatment as apparently it can help to prevent the hair loss.

After that the minor incidents we have had at home seem like nothing.

Here is hoping for a nice peaceful weekend for everyone.
<<< Opens the wine and passes it around>>>

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