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Lies and Tribunal

(96 Posts)
Claw3 Fri 16-Sep-11 09:24:24

The decision notice of Tribunal, is filled with comments from SENCO that are not true. I have evidence that the comments she made are not true.

For example decision notice states "SENCO told us that school are not aware of any self injury" which she did. But i have a letter she sent to the LA, when they requested a list of ds's difficulties and she listed the self injury and told LA they were managing it. I also sent her a letter and photographs of the various injuries ds had caused himself in school, all prior to Tribunal.

Also things like telling the Tribunal that ds was receiving help, that he isnt, saying he met IEP targets when he hasnt etc, etc. All of which i have evidence proving the opposite.

I have written to SENCO asking her to clarify. Have i done the right thing?

StarlightMcKenzie Fri 16-Sep-11 09:38:55

Claw, I think you need to talk to one of the charities about it.

It is probably (now you are so close to the deadline) better to put it down to experience and make sure that you have these kinds of things as evidence for the next one.

You will need to be careful of waffling on about how awful you have been treated by the LA, but you can put in your case statement a few select lines from the decision, with a reference to also submitted evidence if you are clever.

So you can say 'The school have been aware of ds' self-injuring behaviour since x (see attached) which has continued since this time. This was denied during the subsequent tribunal (see paragraph of decision) etc etc. This concludes that the school do not have the resources to keep on top of all the information they have available, and to use it in a way that serves ds adequately.

But do speak to the charities. There might be something you can do.

StarlightMcKenzie Fri 16-Sep-11 09:39:46

Claw. Work on your anger and bitterness. (not suggesting you have no right)

It is going to eat you.

StarlightMcKenzie Fri 16-Sep-11 09:43:33

LOL, I see you give that advice on another thread.

Claw. I feel for you. You have had a horrendous time and been treated apallingly. I know that you have had other things to deal with at the same time so don't be too hard on yourself. We all feel guilty that we just didn't realise how prepared to lie the people are that are paid to help our children, or that we didn't understand that the tribunal process is not the justice system it pretends to be.

None of this is your fault.

Claw3 Fri 16-Sep-11 09:46:21

Thanks Star, my letter to them hasnt come across as angry or bitter, im more frustrated, than angry and bitter, well at least i think i am, maybe tinged with a bit!

I have just asked school to clarify what appear to be inaccuracies as 'im confused' and asked again for copies of all the programmes that they claimed were in place.

I will give IPSEA or SEN SOS a ring, see what they say, thanks.

Claw3 Fri 16-Sep-11 10:13:12

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

beautifulgirls Fri 16-Sep-11 11:20:49

I like Stars approach here - Take the info and circumstances and use it against them.
Sorry you are being given the run around so much here.

Claw3 Fri 16-Sep-11 11:40:44

Stars approach is always good, it is sometimes difficult when you are in the middle of it all, to take a step back and look at it for another direction. Star has that step back doesnt she.

I suppose what is still ringing in my ears from Tribunal is that "i am assuming too much" said to me by one of the judges, when i pointed that ds hadnt met his IEP targets, i was told "no, you assume he hasnt, could school please clarify" School then said "yep he has met his targets", despite everyone having copies of IEP's where ds hadnt met his targets. All school had to say was "yep he has" and this was taken as gospel because teachers dont lie.

So what i am after is for school to say in writing that NO he hasnt met targets, no you cant have a copy of X programme because it doesnt exist, otherwise they can just turn up at next Tribunal and say "yep he has" and be believed.

If anyone else said something that i know not to be true, i would ask them to clarify, otherwise things build up and up and start to get complicated and things get overlooked when you start to challenge a build up of things from the past. If i dont challenge it as it happens, then when i start challenging things from a year ago, i do look bitter.

That was my thinking anyhow.

This is not such much angry and bitter, but i have certainly be tainted by bad experiences from the past which has made me very cynical.

Agnesdipesto Fri 16-Sep-11 22:09:23

Another person tainted here.
Next time I am going to ask for all evidence to be given on oath.
I knew last time we could ask for this under directions but was worried it would be OTT and make us look like the obstructive nutcases the LA were trying to paint us!
Queue huge volume of lies from autism outreach teacher on the day
Was able to pick her up on one of them on the day and had rebutted others ahead of tribunal in writing but still fed up some lies about us appeared in tribunal decision
Next time round (and even though we won there WILL be a next time I am sure) I will be able to show evidence of lies last time and say I want the evidence to be on oath.
Also I reckon last time a Judge may have rejected the request as OTT, whereas now you can prove their evidence was wrong in previous tribunal - so more likely to get a Judge to agree the evidence should be on oath
This means they can be prosecuted for perjury if they lie.
Also if they implied you lied then you can say that giving evidence on oath will give the Tribunal confidence what you are saying is true.

Claw3 Fri 16-Sep-11 23:03:07

Agnes, in the whole of ds's school, its a two form enter per year, only 7 children have statements. I would put money on the school applying for these, not the parents. I would also put money on that school never having a parent apply for a statement before either. Parents who apply for statements are considered a nuisance. SENCO even said at Tribunal that if SHE felt ds needed a statement in the future she would apply to the LA! kind of dont bother your pretty little head about it.

Thanks that is handy to know about giving evidence on oath. Perhaps this should be done automatically anyway, it might make people think twice about the evidence they give.

Claw3 Fri 16-Sep-11 23:07:45

Oh and SENCO replied to my letter already, she wrote a note in ds home/school book. 'i will send home copies of info soon'. Hopefully with the explanation i have asked for to.

StarlightMcKenzie Sat 17-Sep-11 08:01:48

Photocopy that.

I can't understand why everyone isn't under oath anyway. Surely the whole point of these things is that you get the truth.

StarlightMcKenzie Sat 17-Sep-11 08:12:31

And it just shows how biased the process is, - because I think it would be a very rare thing that a parent lies to a tribunal, - but not so the other way around.

Claw I have to be honest with you though. I don't think the LA's performance/dishonesty made a jot of difference. That panel were always going to rule in their favour with comments like 'you assume too much'. And asking the SENCO directly following that with 'did he meet his IEPs?' well, it is almost encouraging/setting up the SENCO TO lie.

They do try to give complete different panels to repeating offenders. You can just hope that the odds are in your favour next time. I'm doing the same as you and just taking heart in the fact that my chances of a good judge are slightly improved as one bad one has been striked off my list.

Claw3 Sat 17-Sep-11 11:15:44

Star, i dont know, if the SENCO had replied "no he hasnt met ANY target on ANY of his programes, since he started school 3 years ago", which is the truth, no matter how biased the panel, i dont think they could have ignored that.

I am amazed that the panel had 2 IEP's in front of the them, evualtion section left blank, exactly the same targets repeated, sucess criteria reduced, but school say "yes he has met those targets" so that must mean he has met them. No logic behind that at all.

Still i will know for next time and i was be insisting that school write FAILED on those IEP's, so there can be no 'mistakes' next time. Now all i have to do is get school to acknowledge that he failed to meet his targets.

StarlightMcKenzie Sat 17-Sep-11 11:43:10

Claw, have you asked for the school file?

You're going at it too blazing. You don't need the school file AND for them to admit that he hasn't met his IEP targets. The information will be in there.

It might have been better NOT to have alerted them to the information you are after.

You have to be careful to keep your revenge and attack in check. You want to hold them to account, say sorry, get told off etc, but this is for YOUR benefit not ds' right now because for him, you need to plan long term and focus on the outcome that you want for him.

It's hard to do, but you can't challenge everything directly and head on, more do it quietly and strategically, and then hit them all at once.

Don't always let on about what you DO know either, unless it is part of your long term strategic goal.

I would LOVE to meet with ds' HT and tell her just what I have planned so she better get her arse into gear for two reasons 1. It will help me let of steam, and 2. It gives her an opportunity to be reasonable, but unfortunately I know from experience that all that will happen is she'll build defense barriers, and in my big battle at the end they will be stronger.

StarlightMcKenzie Sat 17-Sep-11 11:44:23

If she said he hadn't met any target, she'd have to give a reason, like because the staff are getting to know him, or the parents are uncooperative, or they believe in fluid targets or whatever nonsense.

I'm telling you, that panel would not have helped you.

Claw3 Sat 17-Sep-11 12:07:18

I spoke to SOS SEN as you suggested yesterday Star, i explained that i had already sent the letter and told her what i had written. I had also written a letter in July requesting copies of all of ds's programmes, which was the advice i was given.

She said i had given them the opportunity to prepare 'false' documents, if they were that way inclined and it would have been better to request his file in the first instance as you said, listing what i wanted included so they would have to supply by law. I pointed out if they were that way inclined, they could still provide 'false' documents, as i had listed them previously in July, so they already knew what i was after.

So it would have been better to request his file to start with in July, but seen as i had already done it, what is done is done. I was going to request his school file at a later date, as it seems a bit pointless now, after sending the letters.

Claw3 Sat 17-Sep-11 12:38:29

Star, I had evidence at the last Tribunal that he hadnt met his targets, it was there in black and white for everyone to see. The Tribunal were not interested in this, all they were concerned with was the evualtion section was left blank, leaving it open for school to fill in the blank with a "yes he has".

Also this not all about Tribunal, ds obviously has to go to school for probably the next year before a Tribunal, I was also hoping that is school can acknowledge that he hasnt met his targets, we can actually have a working relationship. Any meetings in the meantime are pointless, as the stumbling block is meeting targets, why would school change or increase the help he is receiving, if they can keep on saying he is meeting his targets, therefore the help already in place is working. I need them to acknowledge he hasnt met his targets, so we can more forward in the meantime and not remain in stale mate, until the next Tribunal.

wasuup3000 Sat 17-Sep-11 12:45:38

The school are not going to acknowledge that they can't do their job properly.

They either are going to do their job or not, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

wasuup3000 Sat 17-Sep-11 12:49:19

You need a professional to back up what you are saying in regard to the targets as well and ask them to call a professionals meeting so they can communicate with each other and the school on what needs to be happening.

Claw3 Sat 17-Sep-11 12:49:56

I also have a meeting with CAMHS arranged for school, CAMHS are going to suggest a 1:1 mentor for ds. Now school claimed at Tribunal that ds already had a mentor, he doesnt. So when CAMHS go into school they will be told ds has had a mentor since at least 5 months ago and is doing well etc, etc. So the 'inaccurate' info they are given, needs to be dealt with now, as it is detrimental to the help that ds is likely to get in the future. Its fine holding onto this info for a year until Tribunal but in the meantime ds is suffering because of it.

Admittedly, i am too blazing, but i am desperate for ds to receive now, not in a years time. I cant play this game, im living with the fall out.

Claw3 Sat 17-Sep-11 12:50:52

receive help now

wasuup3000 Sat 17-Sep-11 12:51:16

Just tell CAMHS that he hasn't had a "mentor" and that the school are being untruthful?

wasuup3000 Sat 17-Sep-11 12:52:19

Ring CAMHS on Monday and tell them how you are feeling and that the school will lie to them.

Claw3 Sat 17-Sep-11 12:55:42

Wassup, i dont want them to ackowledge that they cant do their job properly, I want them to fill in the blank evualtion section. They can put it down to an oversight, SENCO being off sick, job share teacher, temp teacher, whatever they want, as long as they fill it in.

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