Here are some suggested organisations that offer expert advice on SN.
High academics and statements(39 Posts)
Ds's end of year report, he is 7 and end of year 2, he got 2A for reading in SATS. EP assessed he has the reading age of 12+ and is a free reader in school.
This post is not a bragging post. Ds was recently turned down for a Statement, mainly because when tested, academically he is above average (although in class he is observed to be getting very little work done in comparsion to his peers) and he has various other difficulties. Ds always manages to score highly in cognitive ability assessments, but i dont think this describes his functional ability.
Could i use this as evidence, as him not fulfilling his potential even though his score is average?
Yes. His needs are not being met. You could also ask (nicely) wtf the scoop are doing getting so far ahead academically when his lessons need to be on social and emotional development.
How do i show that his needs are not being met, if he is achieving average scores in SATS?
Have to pop out, back later.
yes, I would have thought that if he is scoring sky high on EP assessments, but is just at the upper end of average on year 2 sats, then his social communication difficulties are affecting his education. not to diminish his SATs result at all, but would have thought if your DS has a reading age of 12+ school should have expected him to get a 3 on the sats? I do sympathise btw, as I have a 7 year old with asd traits who gets no help, as he's placid and does well academically and is remarkable at blagging his way through when doesn't fully understand things .
Reading levels are tricky and do not necessarily indicate underlying ability. Reading age tests are generally based on recognising words and reading them correctly and not necessarily understanding them or understanding the other processes that go with literacy grades - context, meaning, inference, prediction etc. So a reading age doesn't tell you anything in and of itself
DS is a good reader but EP tests have demonstrated that this doesn't mean he understands what he is reading or can understand inferences etc. A reading age is not an IQ test and an IQ test will also not tell you about problems in areas of learning.
Has your DS done WISC or BAS II? That will demonstrate problem areas in learning and underlying ability.
It is that mismatch between underlying cognitive ability and performance that is key and a EP should be able to identify this. You can't be sure that the performance grade is acceptable unless you are confident you know your son's true learning profle.
But, beware Claw - once you raise these things, it is amazing how you find your child's grades miraculously improve to a level that no one can argue about whether they are achieving - whether it reflects what they are actually achieving is a completely different matter but that becomes very hard to argue against
Wow - what great grades for an 8 year old! It's difficult to be the parent arguing that there is no way he could have achieved them.
A friend of mine recently moved schools after being told her son was doing 'fine' and so there was no need to worried about learning problems - look at his grades. The new school says he's probably dyslexic and assesses his grades as a whole level below what our school had done - so 2A went down to 1A. Outrageous!
Total, Tribunal did question why EP scored him at 12+, but school ony scored him at 2A (this was prior to SATS) and school said something along the lines of not wanting to push him too much, due to his anxiety!
Exactly, ds blags his way or copies other children when he doesnt understand and this has been observed and written into reports.
I previously had the problem of knowing what ds's difficulties were, but not having expert reports to back me up. I now have expert reports to back me up and it is not making a blind bit of difference!
Appropriate, exactly ds is obsessed by reading, much like lining things up, he started to memorise words at a very early age. He spends hours reading, i think he finds it quite calming, he likes words and lists and order.
EP did the WIAT
Word reading age equiv 12+
Reading comprehension age equiv 10.04
Spelling age equiv 6.08
Math reasoning 6.04
Reading rate - far above average.
He previously was tested for IQ in 2009, was in the top 5% of the population.
When SALT assessed his vocab is that of a 4.7 year old, he is 7.4 years old.
Sem links he scored 0.4 percentile
EP did WISC-IV
Verbal comprehension 79th high average
Perceptual reasoning compostie 66th average
Working memory - not appropriate to compute
Processing speed composite 66th average
Full scale composite score - not appropriate to compute.
Ds sat appropriately on the carpet, but seem disengaged and a little self-absorbed. On the occasions when ds gave an answer, his answer did not relate to what was being asked. Suggesting some needs associated with the ability to analyse language and understand certain language based concepts.
Ds was observed to try to initiate interactions with certain other children, but he did not seem to follow through in his interactions.
Once back at his desk, he appeared friendly and considerate towards his partner, allowing him to leaf through the book in order to select a page to work on.
Despite ds seemingly cooperative behaviour, it was evident that he did not want to work on the same page as his partner. Despite my suggesting to him that it would work best if they did, ds smiled but politely declined. He demonstrated that he had his own agenda and rigid thinking. As a result he completed very little work in comparsion with his peers.
Similar in SALT report, OT report and ASD Outreach report. That ds seemed confused and didnt get any work done.
I just dont know how to put all this together, he scores highly, but doesnt function highly. Im finding it really difficult getting this across to school and LA.
SALT assessment Expression, reception and recall of narrative ERRNI
Initial story telling 51 percentile
Story telling recall 47
mean length of utterance 76
All of ds's scores were within the average range but an analysis of the storyline confirms the difficulties already highlighted on previous SAL assessment. Whilst he speaks at length, using complex sentence structures, he struggles to grasp the underlying meaning of a situation.
He spoke at length about irrelevant details and did not get the gist of the storyline. He was unable to understand relationships of the characters or to understand the emotions the characters were feeling. He did not demonstrate the ability to see a situation from another perspective.
Social interaction Deviance Composite SIDC
Speech 6th percentile
Inappropriate initiation 10
stereotyped language 6
use of context 1
nonverbal communication 1
social relation below 1
Interests below 1
She goes on to say he has literal and inflexible understanding of language and severe difficulty in understanding word meanings and these are masked by ds's reluctance to ask for help and his own recognition of when he does not understand. He will have difficulty understanding what another person "means".
All Tribunal seemed concerned with was that EP did WISC-IV and his Verbal comprehension was 79th high average, therefore SALT doesnt know what she is talking about.
Sorry im just blurting this all out, trying to get my head around it too.
Why is there such a difference between what SALT and EP score ds at for the same thing?
May I ask why you didn't get a Full Scale score on the WISC-IV? That would be good evidence, along with your 2009 score, to show the difference in his intelligence level compared with the remainder of his scores. The Psychologist who dealt with my DS told me that most children score within a point or two of each cognitive subtest (whereas my DS has a wide variation). This variation shows that the child needs support in certain areas even if they are average or above average in this area.
You obviously have a lot of data. This is good. Start by identifying the best answers/notes in each report and put them together. Then identify the 'worst' answers notes. That way you have a comparison to start with.
The LEA/school need examples of when he doesn't function highly. If it's hard for you to describe as his mother it will be even harder for them to understand. Write down examples (and rewrite as much as you need) until you are happy with them, like what you described above. I would look for other websites that deal with this issue?
Statements are hard to get, especially for the twice exceptional which is what you DS appears to be, so don't give up.
x-post. I would speak to your SALT first and ask. Perhaps they actually ask different things? (clutches at straws).
Where EP has written 'inappropriate to compute' she has explained in the report 'due to the degree of scatter that exists between subtest scores, it is not meaningful to compute a composite score.
She also says, the fact none of ds's scaled scores are lower than average strongly suggests that he is unikely to experience any particular difficulties with the ability to perceive and retain details of information he hears.
SALT reports the exact opposite.
I would keep challenging this. Just because a child is very bright does not mean they cannot have emotional or social problems. The term for this is "twice exceptional" in that they are in the top 5% for some things yet bottom 5% for other things. The National Gifted and Talented association has a section on twice exceptional children. I know this becuase my friend's boy is twice exceptional. He gets great results at school but has difficulties socially and emotionally.
Special needs and statements do not mean "learning difficulties only" and "very bright" does not rule out other problems. Keep pushing with this one and don't let his SATs scores be relevant, they are not relevant to his other problems. SATs are not the only way to measure a child's achievement and you need to make clear to the school that SATs are only half the story, what about his emotional and social needs?
The school and LA were given examples of when he doesnt function highly in ALL reports and observations.
Every report, when ds is observed in class, he is confused and doing very little work.
The LA's ASD outreach observes that during small group assessment, ds was unable to seperate fantasy and reality, rigid thinking, couldnt change a book without adult assistance, hid his PE kit etc, etc.
OT observed he was fidgetting, at times our conversation did not make sense to me, he was unable to collect the milk from the office with another girl, he couldnt carry them, he couldnt remember what his teachers name was, he didnt know the childrens names to hand milk to, he was the last child to do anything. He struggled with handwriting.
SALT observed in the class ds spoke a great deal, but did not engage in the task. He appeared to be confused by the nature of the task, even after receiving further help from his teacher, he did not understand what his teacher was implying. At the end of the session ds told the teacher he had only done two lines, teacher reassured that this was fine.
Our boys are very similar claw by the sound of it. My son scored only a 1 on speaking and listening in his SATs though -did you get a score for this?
Apparantly my son who also has ADD traits as well as Aspergers chooses not to work when he can't be bothered and daydreams when he instead of getting on with his work....I am not in the mood for challenging IEP targets written by idiots until September though!!
But school are saying he has no difficulties in the classroom and its only 'on paper' that he has these difficulties and that he functions perfectly well in the class room.
Tribunal took the evidence of school, over experts, as expert observation they considered 'snap shots'.
OT report "no social difficulties were reported on the school forms, they state that ds is able to play cooperatively with his peers etc" This was not observed. Although ds chose to sit at the table with other peers, he did not engage in conversation like the rest of his peers. He then walked away to colour in by himself.
OT : visual processing. Ds has been seen by eye specialist and has a dx of Oculamotor type II. Results indicate that ds is sensitive to visual input and glare of the whiteboard which were highlighted in the Visual Impairment Team report, who have given recommendations to school.
The results provided by school show that ds has no visual processing difficulties.
She even wrote "it is not a criticism on the school staff, but it can be difficult to notice behaviours related to sensory processing difficulties in a large class. Therefore when filling out the questionaire, ds's difficulties could be overseen"
I feel like i am hitting my head on a brick wall.
Hi Wassup, im not sure i will have to check.
Sorry the more i think about it, the more it is winding me up. You are right though the end of term is not the time for getting my knickers in a twist Writing it all down on here, does help to get it straight in my head and things that werent obvious before, become so.
Im going to step away from the keyboard and take a walk, before my head explodes!
you might like to have a look at Hyperlexia which may help explain some of these issues.
Yes come back stronger and fighting in September!!
Thanks Dolfrog, i couldnt find hyperlexia on the link you provided, but i will google it.
Wassup, i was hoping to get it straight in my head, so that i knew what i was talking about in September I went to the gym and took it out on the treadmill!
The link is to a collection of research papers and sometimes you have to click the link a few times to get the research paper collection, sometimes you just get the generic PubMed search page.
The link is also included on my Invisible Disabilities research web page. The research paper collections are listed alphabetically
Just had a quick look, have also bookmarked your web page, looks like lots of interesting stuff to read. Will have a good read of hyperlexia and a few others later, when ds is in bed. Thanks very much.
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