We are obviously RUBBISH at this. Come and talk to me please...

[maldivemoment]

Baby is 4 months old I am feeling like a bit of a failure when it comes to bedtime! So I need your advice and/or words of wisdom...

As yet we have no set bedtime for him so it can be anywhere between 8-10. We try to wait for his cues. Have tried putting him down at 7,8,9 etc, and if that's not worked he will generally conk out by 10!!! He is breastfed and has a dreamfeed at 11ish and then he will generally sleep through till 6/7am.

He won't settle himself in cot. Is this usual for a 4 month old?

I try SOOOOOO hard to spot the cues and even when I put him down when he's relaxed, sleepy, content, etc, he will become cross when I put him down, and so begins the crying. I've tried sitting with hims and 'shshing" him to no avail. Eventually I bring him downstairs with us and he's fine.

I'm also a bit fed up of hearing the "oh, my little one goes to bed at 7pm. I put her in her cot and she just gurgles away for a while and then falls asleep" stories. They make me feel like even more of a failure!

Our current routine is:
5-6pm feed
6-7pm bath, story, kick about on mat

So, in a roundabout way, my questions are:

1. Should we enforce a set bedtime? i.e even if baby is screaming he stays in his cot/in his room?
   
   
2. Is he too small for bedtime to be 7ish?
   
   
3. Should I be more strict with daytime naps? He is not a great sleeper during the day but I tend to 'go with the flow'. His best time for a nap is in the morning.
   
   
4. Does it make a difference whether it's feed first, or bath first?
   
   All help gratefully received! Thank you.

[Ohforfoxsake]

First of all, stop feeling like a failure! There's nothing except your instinct to tell you what you should be doing.

16 weeks is no age at all.

I believe there's those parents who strive for routine, and those who don't. Which one do you prefer?

If routine, I would personally start with feeding at similar times each day, and the naps will follow.

You can do a 7pm routine, feed (dinner I suppose), bath, massage, bed-time feed, bed and then another maybe at 10. This suited me first time round because I enjoy that part of the evening.

This was OK with DS1 and DS2 but when DD1 and DD2 came along, I generally did dinner feed, bath, put older kids to bed and didn't actually put the babies to bed until I went. Probably after the 10pm feed. It gave me some time with them, and DP got to see them. These are very precious days, and there's time for routine when they've got to get up in the morning for school!

Its hard to be prescriptive about these things because we are all different.

If you do like a bit of routine, I found Gina Ford useful but only about the feeding/sleeping times. Once the feeding was in a routine, naps seemed to follow naturally. I wouldn't personally follow it to the letter. It doesn't allow for growth spurts, colds, having a life, but I found it helped me.

Once I was outnumbered it was easier for me to go with the flow.

I don't think you are far off what you want to achieve. There's a big difference between having a whinge and settling himself or screaming til he's blue.

Oh, and those babies who gurgle then sleep for 12 hours? It's only a phase....

[teaandcakeplease]

4 months is usually when they start to become more resistant on naps and bedtime I've found. Usually for the pleasure of your company of course. Who would want to be put in a cot in a room all alone, instead of being with mummy? There are a million books full of advice, you have to do what feels right for you and your baby.

With my daughter the Baby Whisperer's PUPD method worked a treat. However with my son I tried that method but sometimes I've found the method of leaving for 5 minutes and going in and then leaving for 10 minutes and going in and then leaving for 15 minutes and going in worked better with him. However he was my second child, so I couldn't and wasn't able to spend all my time with him, as I had a toddler to deal with. So he probably learnt the hard way how to sleep.

Now is the time to teach them in my opinion.

At this age mine napped after only being awake for an hour first thing. So if they woke at 7am they'd go back to bed at 8am. Next nap time would be 11.30am, then 3.30pm to get them through to bedtime and then bath time at 6pm and then always did the feed in the dark after bath time, so they were nice and sleepy and then lay down. You can always give them one breast before bath time if they're really unsettled? But definitely the feed in the dark room worked well for me at this age.

I can tell you what books I've found helpful for advice on sleep if you like? No doubt some more mumsnetters will be along soon with more tips for you x

[jaggythistle]

Hello,

I have a nearly 5 month old and have been doing a similar thing - not really doing a routine.

I couldn't leave him to scream, so he actually goes to bed between 9 and 10 and falls asleep by himself watching a cot mobile/lightshow. This has all been by trial and error, we once left him giggling in his crib and went to get something to find him asleep, so he seemed to work it out for himself.

He seems much more angry if we put him down sleepy and springs awake. We tend to put him down after the last poo of the evening and he is all happy and active instead, the opposite of what I have heard suggested.

He did seem sleepy earlier in the evening so we tried 7pm for a while. He slept for about 40 minutes then was awake till 10 anyway so we gave up. I think he is maybe too small. We have slowly been getting earlier though so he is going closer to 9 now. No idea if this will work, but I am seeing how he gets on himself as I don't fancy 'training' him unless I have to.

I do the same for naps, he seems to naturally have one big one in the morning and one in the afternoon so I just go with it. He does get grumpy when tired so may need some rocking or feding to sleep for naps sometime (I am bf too).

We only bath him every 2-3 days as we haven't really had time to make it into an evening routine.

[lilmissmummy]

I think you are being too hard on yourself. I know it is not the done thing but he is only little and I wouldnt worry too much about getting him into a routine at the moment. I would try putting him in his cot when he looks sleepy and starts yawning, put on a mobile or some night music and see how he gets on.

My two did not get into a routine until they were about 2. They are now 8 and 5 and their sleep patterns are fine (bed at 7.30 and 8 they both sleep through to 7am).

Enjoy him while he is little, it sounds like you are doing great!
x

[maldivemoment]

Thank you for so far your kind words. And thank you for being gentle on me! This 'being-a-mum-lark' is hard work. Good to know I'm not the only one taunting myself and thinking that everyone else has this sorted except me!

[noblegiraffe]

Your baby sleeps through until 6/7 and you feel like a failure?!

[maldivemoment]

noblegiraffe - I know we're very lucky in terms of sleeping through the night and that's why I don't want to seem as if I'm whingeing! I feel more of a failure in terms of not putting a happy baby to sleep at night. Ho-hum...will keep trying! Like jaggythistle says, think it will be a process of trial and error and at the moment it just feels like more errors!!!

[GhoulsAreLoud]

My 18 month old has slept through the night pretty much every night for the last 12 months and yet she still always has a good scream for about a minute or two before she goes to sleep.

Some babies just aren't the snuggle down and gurgle themselves to sleep type.

[HumphreyCobbler]

Your baby is happy staying up with you. You are meeting his needs rather than imposing your own.

I see this as good parenting

[Ohforfoxsake]

this is good

Its a voice activated nightlight. My girls still use it now. Its quite gentle and not overly annoying, but distracting enough.

[maldivemoment]

HumphreyCobbler - thank you. You have made my night .
Well, that and the fact that husband and I are off out tonight for the first time since baba was born!!!

[countrylover]

It may be worth trying bath and then feed rather than the other way round.

I know in an ideal world perhaps you don't want to feed him sleep but I found by 4 months both DS's were still awake at the end of their 7pm feed anyway and would go into their cot half awake half asleep.

[Ohforfoxsake]

Feeding to sleep is just lovely for both of you. I can't see any reason why at this age you shouldn't do it. Creating dependency could be one, but then you don't get many independent 4 month old babies. That's probably why I took mine to bed at 10pm. So I didn't have to get up again.

Hope you are having a lovely night out!

[Igglybuff]

I've got a 19 week DS and only in the last two weeks have we got our bedtime routine sorted... (naked kick about, bath, massage, book, feed, bed)

He gets quite annoyed after the bath as he's hungry but we stick it out so feed is the last thing before he sleeps.

He occasionally self settles in the night when he wakes up but I've not yet got him to self settle at the start - so I wouldn't worry. A couple of my mummy friends have got their babies to do this, but only through the use of controlled crying which I'm not prepared to do!

[maldivemoment]

Huge thanks to you all for much needed support and encouragement. Am off to Mothercare tomorrow to buy one of those musical projector things. Husband wants to buy one at £50 but I've persuaded him to go for the more basic version!

I have taken all your advice on board and feel more confident now about trying various versions of bedtime!

Three cheers for mumsnet! Hip Hip, Hooray!