Anyone else about to embark on NCSS?

[Anglepoise]

Book finally arrived yesterday and read through from cover to cover so have got the gist but need to go back and re-read!

Did try to have a calm hour before bed last night and add a bit to her routine, so had bath, boob, massage, books, then up to our room, grobag on, tried playing a lullaby on her mobile but this was way too exciting, then nursed to sleep and she was in her cot asleep by 7.30, which has never happened before. Then she woke up around 8.15 pm and would not go back to sleep (despite being clearly sleepy argh), so at 9 pm she came back downstairs again. Midnight we all went to bed, nursed her to sleep, asleep by 12.15.

Awake at 2 am (time in cot 1 hr 45 min), nursed back to sleep. Here my log goes awry so probably have to do it again tonight because it felt like she went back to sleep in a couple of minutes but when I checked the time I put her back in her cot it was 2.45, so I must have fallen asleep

Awake again at 3.00 (time in cot 15 min ), nursed back to sleep, back in cot at 3.30 (think I fell asleep again!).

Woke up again at 5ish (time in cot 1 hr 30 min) and put her into our bed because I was so tired, after which she slept until 8.30 (woken by us!).

So total sleep from 7.30 = 7 hr 45 min
Wakings = 4
Longest sleep = 3 h 30 min

Think I will do it again tonight due to mummy-malfunctioning

Today she fell asleep easily for a nap around 10.30 and has just woken up!

Anyone joining me in my obsession?

[Anglepoise]

Naps today:

10.30-12.30ish = 2 hrs, 2hrs after getting up, in her chair, fed to sleep

4.15-5.30ish = 1 hr 15, just under 4 hrs after waking up, in her car seat, fed to sleep

3 hr 15 total, no nap routine (at my mum's for M Day), fell asleep both times easily though and slept for a long time

Then fell asleep on the way home at around 7.30. So our pre-bed routine consisted of drive home, then me trying to decide what the hell to do, then trying to change her into a babygro while feeding her so she wouldn't wake up too much, then her really waking up so me trying to change her nappy as well, then her peeing all over her vest and grobag, then her really really waking up, then me feeding her until my nipples were sore while she nearly dropped off, then giving up and going downstairs, then her chatting through lost, then feeding her to sleep around half ten. She is currently asleep in her chair. I am not sure this counts as a bedtime routine

[Anglepoise]

Still no one else?

I should probably shifty into the six month sleep thread then, but having started here I may as well continue

Sleep log from last night:

Asleep in chair from about 10.30 (fed to sleep)
Put down in cot asleep around 11 pm
Awake at 12.45, awake for ten min, fed back to sleep (= 2 hr 15 min)
Awake at 3 am, awake for ten min, fed back to sleep (= 2 hr)
Awake at 5 am, start feeding back to sleep, wake with a jerk 30 min later to find her asleep across my tummy (= 2 hr)
Awake and into our bed at around 7 (= 2 hr ish)
Awake at 8.30 (possibly earlier, she was chatting and I was trying to sleep), try to persuade her to feed back to sleep, up for the day at 8.45 (= 1 hr 45ish)

Total sleep = around 10 hrs
Awakenings = 5
Longest span of sleep = 2 hr 15

So now for the plan ...

[artifarti]

Hello, me again! Feel free to come and join us on the six month thread - we could certainly do with any tips going.

I am not doing NCSS but am obsessing and writing it all down in a book, similar to yours. So far, patterns and observations are:

1. Stopping feeing him to sleep was scarey but has made a huge difference and almost eliminated wakings for feeding.
   
2. He eats solids like a pig now. That may be helping.
   
3. He likes getting up at 5.40. I don't.
   
4. Teeth are a PITA and getting him to sleep without Calpol at some point during the night is seemingly an impossibility. I feel bad about this.
   
   As you can see, I am being very scientific in my study.

[averagemum]

Hello Angle, Hello Arti -
I've had the book for a while and had some great success with the 'pull off' technique (ds used to jerk awake as soon as I tried to get him off the boob, but now I just shift him onto my shoulder and he dozes off) so that's definitely worth a go but like Arti I think I really need to stop the bedtime feed being a zonk-out-into-the-cot-oblivious feed. Will start tonight with doing the feed BEFORE the bath (am a bit scared but encouraged by your progress Arti!). BTW, 6am is a lie-in for us, it's 5.30 every day at the moment, plus anything from 1-3 wakings...

[artifarti]

averagemum Definitely worth trying to break the bedtime feed association. I was assuming that because he went down wide awake for naps and usually awake after the night-time feeds that the nice bedtime sleepy feed wouldn't make a difference.

A good tip we tried was to detach him when he is obviously sleepy and then sit him up and look through a picture book (same one every night) and then put him into his cot. The first night he just tried to eat it and then took 25 minutes to fall asleep (by himself, happily). Now, a few nights later he has a slightly longer look and is usually fast asleep 10 minutes after being put in his cot. The night before last he slept for 10.5 hours which is a record for him.

[caspercat]

new to this thread - can i ask how old your dcs are??

[artifarti]

Seven months, caspercat.

[averagemum]

6.5 here - thanks for the tip artifarti! I'm going to try it tonight (with 10.5 hours gleaming in my mind like a beacon!). Was any crying involved? Or shouting? (Mine's a shouter).

[artifarti]

No crying or shouting at all (mine's also a shouter). It was as if he'd gone down for a nap - some chuntering and lots of banging legs on mattress (I think it helps him to wind down, the weirdo). Let me know how you get on. I think a quick look at a book is a good way to get used to breaking the connection; the bath might be too much of a stretch at first.

Sorry, Anglepoise we have inadvertently hijacked your NCSS thread. [Arti creeps back to six months thread...]

[Anglepoise]

Don't worry, it's nice to have the company I probably should just join in the 6 month thread, but will keep this going for a bit just in case anyone else is looking for a NCSS one

Since I think she basically wakes for a quick suck (rocking etc doesn't seem to help), it looks like it might be worth trying to break the feed to sleep association (it's so useful though!).

I am not looking forward to teething at all, partly because I'm still breastfeeding (and hopefully not stopping for a while) and partly because so far giving her Calpol just makes her projectile vomit

Caspercat DD will be six months on Saturday

[leeloo1]

Hey Anglepoise (et al),

Well, I've read the book, does that count? I'd pinned big hopes on it as a magic wand type solution, but not sure what help its been so far... although I have tried the gentle pull off thing at nap times, which works sometimes but usually he wakes up if I disengage him or if I try to put him down so I end up holding him for naps (which is actually lovely most of the time except I worry its ruining his ability to ever sleep without me! ).

DS sounds quite similar to your DD as he also just seems to want a few mins suck 2-7 times per night and then drifts off again. He will be 6 months on 2nd April and is a big baby, 97th% for weight and 125% for height (DH keeps telling me you can't be more than 100%, but he is definitely off the chart) and I'm permanently confused about whether he needs to eat more because he's big/ teething/ has a cold/ I'm too tired to do anything differently...

He used to sleep a bit better when he was younger and took a dummy, but that was only til he was about 12 weeks... and he used to scream and be hard to settle, but I instigated a routine of quietish time with books/under mobile, bath, massage, cuddle, feed til nearly asleep then bed with sleepytime music throughout and thats seemed to help a lot and he usually settles really well. I haven't tried a last minute book as he was usually screaming for food whilst I dressed him and then fast asleep after a few minutes of food, but as he's not quite so exhausted now it might be worth a try.

Last night was the 1st night he wasn't in our room and he's now in his cot (thought perhaps squashing him into his newborn baby crib might not be helping him sleep ) Tonight I've enlisted DHs (moderately unwilling) help, so between 12 and 6ish he'll be going through to give cuddles and try to shush him to sleep, to (hopefully) break the feeding/waking cycle and I'll only feed as a last resort. Will let you know if it helps.

I can't really remember any tips from the NCSS book, so must re-read it, or let me know what you're planning to do so we can compare notes.

[Anglepoise]

Hello leeloo and good luck!

Things I'm trying from the book (nothing ground-breaking and actually nothing I couldn't have got from elsewhere really!):

• making a proper effort about naptimes (rather than getting to 4 pm and realising she hasn't really slept)
• maybe making her nap in her cot (tried this once, not v successful, may reapproach when naps are better)
• quiet hour before bed
• reasonable bedtime routine
• reasonable bedtime (disaster so far)
• not feeding to sleep (disaster so far)
• saying sshh shh bedtime for sleepy girls (makes her open her eyes and look at me suspiciously)
• playing music makes her sit bolt upright and try to work out where it's coming from, so have abandoned that!

So last night was first time of trying this. At 6.30 we had some nice quiet time then headed upstairs. Took me half an hour to get her to sleep with the pull-off method then down in her cot by quarter past seven. Back up and downstairs again by eight

At half ten we headed for bed again. Forty-five minutes of trying the pull-off method only taught her that if she felt as though she was falling asleep, she should limpet herself to me as hard as she could, or mummmy would try to steal her booby. At 11.15 I suddenly decided it would be a good idea to take the side off the cot, which I've been meaning to do for months, as she tends to sleep well between us but it's not really safe. To his credit, DH helped with this rather than calling me a mentalist. He also did lots of rocking to no avail. By midnightish we were all lying down in the dark but DD a long way from sleep - by this time I would happily have fed her to sleep but she was having none of it. Very confused night followed, part of which she spent between us because I thought I had two babies (one on each side), a lot of which I spent half in her cot (cold), a fair amount of which she spent crying, and a lot of which I spent awake. She was up for the day and chatting/crying at 6 while we kept hitting play on her mobile thing so we could snoooze. Argh!

So far I hate Elizabeth Pantley

[McDreamy]

At what age can you start using this technique? DD is only 6 weeks and we co sleep at the moment. Was wondering if it's worth getting the book yet?

[averagemum]

Sounds like a really tough one Anglepoise - I hope you manage to get a nap in today with your lo. I agree that none of the stuff in the Pantley book is really rocket science (everything is prefixed with 'this may help...', which I suppose means it might not!). Maybe all it does is try to get you making some kind of plan and sticking to it? As for our plan... well, it seems to have worked! I fed ds after his bath as usual, but with all the lights on and blinds up, then when he'd pretty much fallen asleep I took him off, stood up and we watched the electric blind come down together (a little ritual - saying goodnight to the day) then into his cot with his eyes open, hair stroked and... he woke up 2 hours later for more hair stroking, but then slept through until 5.15am! He definitely woke up at least once more in the night, but obviously went back off to sleep by himself. Not sure if it's a fluke but will do the same tonight - maybe getting a story in after the blind-coming-down-thing. Artifarti once you'd done one night without feeds, did you vow never again? I mean, should I just try and settle by any other means necessary now that I know he can do it?

[averagemum]

McDreamy, she basically says that before 4 months you should just go with the flow, but try to avoid creating a sucking-to-sleep association. Hah! I read it when ds was 3 months and failed miserably on that score!

[McDreamy]

think I am heading down that road too averagemum. Maybe I should get the book in preparation!

[artifarti]

Hi averagemum - Wow! Glad you had some success! No, I am too weak to do the never feed again thing! DP usually tries to shush him back to sleep but our problem at the moment is that his teeth are killing him so sometimes a quick comfort feed is all that will settle him after the Calpol. As long as we are making gradual progress, I am happy. He slept a 9.5 hr stretch until 4.45 last night and then nothing would settle him so ended up getting up at 6.30. A fortnight ago we were lucky if we got past 1.30 without him waking up, so this is great. When the teething abates, I will review the situation...

[artifarti]

...Oh! But I don't feed him back to sleep. Just until soothed/sleepy.

[Anglepoise]

Wow averagemum that sounds fab!

McDreamy I'm afraid I skipped the 0-4 section, but FWIW I don't regret in the slightest feeding her to sleep for the past six months because it's been wonderful to have something that will put her to sleep and because it's been lovely for both of us It's not even really causing a problem for us now except that I want to stop doing it, and even then I'm a bit conflicted (it's only because I think it might help with her waking through the night - but a few months ago she was feeding to sleep and sleeping 6-8 hours at a stretch, so they aren't mutually exclusive).

She is sleeping now (and has been for about an hour) ... I should be tidying/cleaning ready for SIL coming to stay at the end of the week, but have been distracted by MN and chocolate cake

[averagemum]

You know the crazy thing though? I actually feel rubbish today (and feel terrible for saying it because I know so many mums on here would kill for that much sleep). But I feel rubbisher than I have for weeks! Thanks for yet another tip artifarti, I should know by now that when it comes to babies nothing is ever set in stone!

[Anglepoise]

Aw averagemum - I have heard that you can feel worse once you finally get some sleep! Hope you've had another good night and are feeling better today.

Another mixed bag from us here. Took her to bed at 7 but she refused to settle so back down stairs again. Think she fell asleep around 8 in her chair and stayed that way until I carried her to bed and gave her a dreamfeed shortly before 11. Awake at 11.30 crying then 1ish I think then 2-sometime ... Didn't see any time starting with 3 but did see 4 and 5 I think - again it's all a bit of a blur. She slept a lot better once I moved her into our bed (my side rather than the middle, now she can't fall out) but my mummy bear instincts kicked in and had to keep checking she hadn't fallen down the gap between the mattresses.

She was taking proper feeds most times she woke up (and I've given up not feeding to sleep ) so I'm wondering whether it's the 6 month growth spurt I was blocking out ....

[leeloo1]

Hi Anglepoise

Sorry, have been a bit sleep deprived and forgot to check on here to see if you'd replied. Few random thoughts anyway...

Sounds like you have a fab list of stuff to try (and I love your descriptions of how your LO is reacting!) but maybe you're trying to fight too many battles at once? Please don't think I'm criticising, just having read your later posts realising that things aren't altogether going smoothly?!?

Could you put your list in order of what you want to try first - like maybe if you get the bedtime routine in place first and not worry about feeding to sleep for now - type thing? Or if you do want to do it all, then I just keep reminding myself that Ed has had 6 months of stuff being a certain way so it'll take a while to get him used to the new regime!!!

I do think that having a bedtime routine really helps, as Ed used to be a nightmare to get to sleep, (hour or more of crying and needing feeding/jiggling etc) and now he goes down without a murmur most nights, so definitely persevere with that if you can? Even if LO is a bit surprised by some aspects to start with!

I played Ed his sleepy time music from when he was a month or so - only cos my parents kept asking if I'd played him the cd they'd bought (happy music for sleepy babies - quite trippy-ish but listenable to, with 5 long tracks, so lasts from bathtime til he's in cot on his own) - so he's quite accepting of that now... thinking about it I used to play it to him in the evenings while he was chilling and then when I got the bedtime routine going then it became part of it, so maybe you could try that to get her acclimatised.

I've never taken Ed downstairs after he's been put to bed, even if I've had to be with him for an hour or more, as I think it might send mixed messages and if they're then there while you're watching tv and stuff then would LO not get wide-awake again? Actually when I first started putting Ed to bed (as opposed to him just going to bed whenever we did) I used to go to bed too (and read) so I'd be with him if he needed me - although he was about 8ish weeks then, so I still wanted to be with him 24/7. Not sure if you're up for that, but instead you could try putting her to bed later and then gradually bringing the time forward til its one you're both happy with?

Ed's quite happy with the pull-off thing at bedtime, (I had Your baby week by week - fab book for early weeks! - which recommends putting them in their cot a bit awake, so I've always done this at bedtime and I've found that when its all dark and he's sleepy and peaceful after his bath etc then if I can quickly transfer him to my shoulder for a pat/burp then he doesn't seem to wake up too much... so will resettle himself quite well. But for naptimes then ARRRRRRGH its a completely different story as if i try that he wakes up and looks round! He basically only wants to sleep while feeding/sucking or while out in pram, so I've been trying to do the pull-off thing at naptimes mainly and what I have found is that if i completely take my boob away then he freaks out (he doesn't take kindly to me trying to close his mouth with my finger either - wtf is that about Pantley???) but that if I ease out but leave my nipple under his bottom lip then he'll either rootle til he can suck again (but as its nearby he doesn't completely wake up) or is happy that he hasn't been cut off from the source so will stay sleepy - it does take a few goes til he's happy whilst not sucking, but maybe worth a try?

I had a bit of a success today (hurray) with naps though as when he got all glazed looking then I whipped him up to his room, closed the curtains and turned his mobile on, but to get him to sleep i had to:
--feed him (Ed almost asleep til I put him in cot, when he woke up looking stunned and hurt at cruel abandonment)
-- stroke him in his cot (he tried to shrug my hand off and waaaaah-ed)
--pick up and jiggle him (could feel him looking around over my shoulder)
--another feed and then back in his cot
---I then snuck towards the door and sssssshed him from there... and he was then calm and a few minutes later he went to sleep woo-hoo! His first proper nap in his cot!!!

That was this morning anyway, but at lunchtime we were out and it didn't go quite so well and I ended up letting him sleep on me for an easy life (Bad Mummy).

My nighttime plans have changed a bit, as initially I wanted him not to feed between 12 and 5, but he genuinely seems hungry after 4 hours (maybe this'll improve when weaning kicks in??? I'm doing BLW so he's not really eating much atm), so now DH and I are just trying to jiggle him back to sleep in the interim waking up times. So far in the last 3 nights he's woken for a feed at 11.30ish, but after that then he's been jiggled to sleep with no food twice (1.30am one night and 3ish another) and jiggled but then fed once (3.30ish last night) and then having bigger feeds when he does wake up. So all in all he's only now being fed twice a night, which is pretty managable really - certainly compared with the 6/7/8 times it has been recently. Not sure if he'd have improved on his own anyway (or if it'll stay improved!) or if we're actually helping him, but it feels like a bit of progress!

Anyway, not sure if any of random musings have helped at all, but I've been typing for an hour - oops - so had better go to bed as eyelids will need matchsticks soon!

[Anglepoise]

Thanks leeloo - really appreciate you taking the time to type that all out

You're right that it is/was quite a lot to try at once, but the NCSS makes you come up with a sleep plan and try to implement the whole thing at once.

When she was very little we did play the same CD each night when she was going to bed in the hope that it would eventually start to = bedtime in her mind. We started with a Mozart CD (don'tchaknow ), which eventually started to = go mental for two hours in her mind (think we made the mistake of playing it at bedtime rather than when she was already sleepy) and then switched to a CD of lullabies because the Mozart seemed way too stimulating, but DH said he didn't like the lullabies

I've also tried settling her in her cot at bedtime and staying up there, but just end up feeling like I haven't had an evening but have been trying to get her to bed for six hours (and we all go to bed at the same time as usual anyway); having her downstairs in her chair isn't ideal I know but at least I can eat/watch tv/surf t'internet etc.

As to how we're getting on ... Well, I think almost nothing of our original sleep plan is still in place, but a few things seem to have fallen into place by themselves (though will probably turn out to be a phase and change in a few days!). I'm not making a huge effort with naps (and she hasn't had another one in her cot ) but she does seem to have fallen into the habit of having looong (2-3 hr) naps each day. She's also fallen asleep around 8 pm for the past few nights and (and I hope this sticks) we've been carrying her upstairs asleep and lying her down like that rather than spending an hour or so trying to get her down.

I have stopped worrying too much about feeding to sleep - I think it's probably just a developmental thing and a bloody useful tool to boot.

Biggest change is that we're more or less co-sleeping. First night was wonderful - DD didn't really wake up at all between 11 pm and 9 am but just snuffled a couple of times, at which point I just latched her on. Last few nights haven't been quite as seamless but I have absolutely no idea how often I/we have woken up or when, which is a nice change from being able to list all my wakings in the morning!

So not sure whether NCSS has had any effect (except on my mood maybe?) but things seem a lot better.

Btw we started on BLW yesterday - hope it's going well for you