No Cry Sleep Solution Success!!! (I hope...)

[kayjayel]

Anyone want to join me in trying to make the NCSS work? I have an optimistic feeling (foolish I know) it may work with DD (5 mths).

She looked like a promising sleeper for first 2 mths (4 or 5 hr chunks!), then it all went to pot and has been waking every 2 hrs (or 45 mins, or constantly feeding) since then really. Had DS (now 3) as a sleeper from hell and I really can't do that all over again.

So I'm sticking with just one thing - trying to get her to settle herself from wake to sleep in her cot the very gentle gradual NCSS way. So - the plan -

Current going to sleep: on the breast
Goal - going into cot sleepy then settling self to sleep.

What I'm doing: the repeated pulling off the breast at the end of the feed and getting her to settle with just a cuddle, with the aim of then being able to cuddle her then put her in cot sleepy.

So night 1: Fairly normal 2 hrly waking, but seemed a bit easier at going into cot
Night 2:
Bed 9pm (socialising, so late),
woke 9.45 (rocked to sleep, back in 2 mins),
woke 1.30 , fed, back in cot (bit wriggly and fussy but no crying),
woke 4am (fed, fussy, but no crying, back in cot)
woke 6.30am (fed, awake for day)

It felt great! Longest sleep was 3.45 hrs, went 4.45 between feeds. And first night she's spent months in the cot all night (usually I get too tired and pull her in with me). And despite being wriggly and having more 'awake' breathing when put back in the cot after a feed she didn't wake or call for me, which feels like progress.

Excuse the me, me, me, thread, but I want to keep a log, and remind myself to keep going. Does anyone else want to join?

[thisisyesterday]

the pull-off technique worked for me. I didn't do it until ds2 was about 8 or 9 months, but it definitely worked and it wasn't long before he was able to be put ion his cot awake and fall asleep by himself.

it definitely helps if you introduce a comforter I found. ds2 has a soft puppy blanket that someone gave him and he snuggles up with it in his cot, so cute!

[kayjayel]

Oh thats really helpful, thanks. I'm trying to be optimistic, cos it helps but it helps to know someone actually made it work. With DS it kind of improved things, but he was so bad at sleeping that everything was too hard and I didn't do it properly (and I didn't have hope, and I had a lot of CC talk thrown at me).

I'm going to try find a comforter, but I've also tried using hand squeezing as a sleep association (I feel silly with sleep words), and using this in the day and when she is going to sleep, and this seemed to help in the night when she was settling in the cot.

[Scifinerd]

Hi I would love to join this thread. At end of my tether as ds2 waking nearly every 30 minutes and i am like the walking dead. I have pulled ncss off the shelf and I am going to spend the next day reading it and putting my plan in place, so would be really good to have this as a support too.

Hopefully together we will get through it and no longer need matchsticks to prop our eyes open

[kayjayel]

Hi Scifinerd! Every 30 mins sounds absolutely horrific, poor you. How old is your DS? And is he feeding to sleep, or rocked or what? The NCSS says to do something about naps first, but I've got a 3 yr old, and naps feel pretty much okay. Not long enough for the book, but if they were longer we'd be more stuck for getting out and about in the day. I need to improve bedtime routine too, as its all a bit hectic at bedtime. What do you do?

It would be great to do it together for motivation - yesterday DD had jabs and I let it slip a bit.

So - night 3:
Did the pull off to start the night,
6.45 bed
11.30 feed 1 (back to cot)
2.15 feed (kept her in bed - too tired)
3.15 feed (annoying - I'm sure she'd have gone longer if back in the cot)
6am feed
7am awake

That looks lots better already from last week (every 1-2 hrs, and up for hrs).

[tinierclanger]

Right I am joining as of tonight! DS is now 4 months and last night it was.
6.45 bed
10.15 feed
01.40 feed
04.30 feed - he was really upset, think he had a nightmare
05.45 up for the day

Could cope with the incredibly early start if only one feed in the night, but not the two! And a couple of weeks ago he WAS only feeding once in the night... then came a growth spurt. I know this is still a lot better than some (poor you, Scifinerd!), but we need to sort it now.

Have already been pulling off but now am going to add the keywords as I do it. And try and wean off the night feeds by shortening them.

[kayjayel]

Hi tinier!

I think I've messed tonight up already! DD awake 45 mins after going down and I'm worried she's not had enough milk so I'm going to feed her, rather than rock. Have a horrid voice in my head using unhelpful phrases like 'rod for own back' and 'feeding associations' etc. But she was so tired at bedtime I'm sure she only had a small feed before passing out...

[tinierclanger]

I know just what you mean, I would be worried not enough food at the point - and this is the beginning of the night, so maybe best to make sure full up now, rather than later?! Good luck!

[ChairmumMiaow]

We're not doing NCSS (DS seems to be able to self settle in the middle of the night these days) but we've had some similar success.

DS has recently been stuffing his face at dinner and hasn't had room to feed himself off to sleep - he keeps pulling off awake every time the milk starts flowing after the first few gulps.

Anyway, he was sort of letting me cuddle him to sleep but would pop his head up and smile every few minutes, so I wasn't helping him get to sleep. I've been putting him down, and we've had some grumbling the first couple of nights, and last night he went into his cot with his eyes open and went off to sleep with no help. (He ate a bit less tonight so managed to feed to sleep)

Anyway, what I'm trying to say in my typically verbose, anecdote ridden way is that even though I'm not doing it deliberately, gently not feeding to sleep seems to work!

[onepieceoflollipop]

My dd is a bit older than some of yours (15 months) but I tentatively tried the "pull off" technique with her dummy and had some success.

Also I recently put her in the same room as her older sister (who has always wanted to share with the lo and this has helped immensely too) iirc Elizabeth Pantley is a big fan of room/bed sharing if this suits your family. Both dds seem to love the company.

[kayjayel]

Hi again, how is tonight going? Scifi I saw your other thread about books and remembered throwing one (can't remember which, wasn't a big 'name') across the room with DS when I read its patronising 'its all your fault'-ness. And bursting into tears at the hopelessness. NCSS made me feel so much better about myself.

Tinier - that is horridly early. Doesn't the babywhisperer do a 'wake-to-sleep' thing for this? I know that with DS if he woke up between 3 and 4 he would then sleep later, but if he went through from 3am then he would be up half 5 (much older though).

What keywords are you using? I'm doing shushing as it just came naturally. Is anyone else's baby also trying to pull your hand off when you start trying to do the pull off?

DD has a cough so I know I'm going to want to feed her, and she'll probably wake more with it, so not too hopeful for tonight.

[kayjayel]

I love all these gentle success stories - in RL it definitely feels like either some form of CC or martyrdom is the choice.

I can't wait to get DD in DS's room, but there's no way I can face 4 night feeds traipsing into a different room. It was partly wanting her to move in that motivated me to get her to sleep a bit better.

Any bedtime routines to share? That work with noisy tired 3 yr olds rampaging in the house?

[onepieceoflollipop]

kayjagel on a positive note (perhaps we are lucky!?) dd1 used to settle around 7.30 and dd2 around 7pm. dd2 would then wake at least once or twice, no particular pattern. Since putting them in together, dd2 stays awake for stories (usually on dh's lap, nice and relaxed). She is tending to wake 5-6am now, which we are very pleased with. dd1 is almost 5 btw.

dd2 seems to want company in the night rather than it having to be me, or me feeding her in our bed. It is actually lovely checking on them both and seeing them both very sweetly tucked up in their bed and cot. You may be lucky and find that your dd settles better.

Why not try a compromise - move her cot into his room, but have a travel cot in whatever room she used to sleep in as a back up if it all goes a bit wrong.

[Scifinerd]

Hi everyone. I have only just started logging naps and night sleep. Its going to be difficult to do a lot of the day stuff as I have 2 other children who I have to go back and forth for school runs etc.

I agree that the pantley book is so much more reassuring and comforting and I really hope I have the strenght and energy to follow it through.

My keyword is sleepy time (used it with other two) and shushing. I haven't quite worked out my tactics as not filled in enough logs yet. But my ds just does not sleep well in my arms and it is so frustrating as I would be more than happy to co sleep. He eats well on his weaning foods but not sure he is having enough booby in the day but how do you force it??

I am also considering moving him into his own room but can't face the thought of all these wakings being so far from my own bed, I deal with them on a kind of zombified level just now. But something has to change as I am going to end up having a car accident the way this is going and I am getting really depressed.

I love the idea of this support thread and I will be thinking of you tonight at 1,2,3,4,5,6. Tinier my ds also wakes for the day anytime between 5 and 6. Fun, fun fun.

[kayjayel]

Hi scifinerd - my god with 2 others no idea how you're coping! It sounds like torture. No idea how you get more milk in in the day time, could you ask on the feeding section? Maybe he needs less bulk food (can't remember how old he is?). I'm with you on the move into another room. My mum swears it helped me sleep when my sister came in with me, but it would be a huge effort (rearranging room etc.) I can't find the time for yet. I'm sure she'll end up back in bed with me too, as I won't be able to make myself get up to take her back after a feed.

So far no more peeps from her, will see how the night goes, and think of the thread when I'm tempted to just let her suck all night while I doze (This is what I did with DS, hence no sleeping through til 2yrs).

Good luck all with pull offs, feeds, early starts. Hoping you get closer to 6 than 5

[tinierclanger]

Ok so last night we had

18.00 feed with pull-off
18.10 asleep, just about eyes open on the way down - he was shattered as didn't nap yesterday afternoon
00.15 feed - think he went so long cos shattered. Did pull-off and keywords ('ssh, sleepytime'). Awake when he came off and went straight to sleep in my arms. Feed only lasted 10 minutes.
04.30?? Think it was about this time for the next one, did the pull off and keywords and also tried to stall with cuddling for a couple of minutes. Think the feed was about 5 mins. Really hard to remember though as so sleepy.
05.45 We both got up. He'd been awake about half an hour chatting though I think. But got really loud and made lots of suspicious noises that turned out to be wind.

How did everyone else get on?

[kayjayel]

Tinier - sounds fantastic, apart from early start! How awake is he with the pull off? Is he about to shut eyes, or still quite alert? DD seems to 'crash' to sleep, so thrashes wildly for a while when feeding, and I've been trying to take her off as soon as eyes close. I have to do quite a lot of repeats with this.

My night = hellish
6.30 bed
7.15 feed
11 awake feed, then awake for 90 mins, happy Back in cot 12.30
1.15 awake (I was so tired, thought it was 3 and fed her, then looked at the clock and lost the plot and cried). Awake for another 75 mins. Couldn't get her back into cot, so finally in bed with me at 2.30.
3.30??? poss? feed in bed
6.15 feed in bed
7.30 feed in bed
Currently still asleep.

She is coughing, so it might be a bug/the jabs this week, but basically when I tried to put her down she was (as normally) a bit wriggly and instead of settling herself she woke up and was all happy and gurgly. I feel awful as she is such a happy baby and I shouted at her .

I'm feeling a bit down about this, like I should just accept it, sleep with her and DP will have to stay in the kids room indefinitely . I need some encouragement to stick at this. At least she did have a big 4 hr chunk at the beginning of the night, tonight I'm going to bed at 7 in the hope of catching it.

[tinierclanger]

He's pretty drowsy, just about to shut his eyes in the overnight feeds. With the bedtime 6pm-ish one, it's pot luck. There's usually a lot of picking up, putting down, walking and singing at bedtime before he actually goes off. BTW I think (although could be wrong), wake-to-sleep is only from 6 months so not trying it yet!

He started seeming tired again about 6.30 so I started trying to get him back to sleep, then it segued into hungry, so fed around 6.40, then I managed to get him to doze a bit around 7.20 but he was up again at 7.30 having done a huge poo - in a good mood at least though. Our daytime naps are pretty nightmarish, with lots of rocking and walking and crying involved...

Don't just accept it, keep going! It is going to take time for all of us - we know it's not an instant fix but I really think it will work if you keep at it. And yes maybe it makes sense in the meantime to nab that long bit of sleep at the beginning for yourself until things get better - I went to bed at 9 last night to do the same thing!

Know what you mean about the guilt, I nearly shouted this morning with the failed nap but just managed to hold back. It's so hard not to get cross when you are tired and you know that they need the sleep too - if only they would listen!

[Scifinerd]

As E Pantly says in her book, sleep training comes at a price: either crying or time. Her methods take time (so hard I know) but they apparently will work. So if you can keep going we are here to cheer you on.

As to my night, horrific. In fact I am so wiped out i can barely speak. I haven't even progressed beyong trying to fill in a log on his sleep and I can't even do that as days are so crazy hectic that by the time I go to fill it in I can't remember what happened. For eg yesterday my ds napped in the tesco shopping trolley while I raced with other son to get shopping done before picking up daughter. I was so busy stopping ds1 from having too many "I want" tantrums and worrying about getting to my daughter's school on time and rushing to get freeezer stuff home before setting out again that I really couldn't work out how mush ds2 was sleeping in trolley and in car. I think I am just so tired now that remembering to breathe is difficult let alone implementing a sleep plan. Plus my days are so hectic I can't seem to find time to read the bloody book and eves too exhausted. I need to break out of this visious circle. aargghh

[tinierclanger]

Oh no, Scifinerd! Is there anyone you can get some help from?

[kayjayel]

Oh Scifinerd poor you, it just sounds so hard. I haven't bothered thinking about naps because I find just one older kid disruptive enough, but 2 would make it so hard. Do you have any help on the weekend, to get some time to sit read it/have a sleep? Or do you at least have large buckets of tea and sympathy from anyone?

Thanks for the encouragement, I am sticking with it, and I was really really pleased with how DD went to sleep at 6.45 last night - fed, then she was so wriggly and chewing me I just took her off and cradled/rocked her with a singing bear playing, and she went into dozy, sleepy, and after about 15 mins went to sleep. I had to do a bit of minor rocking. So was very very impressed with that. And then...

6.45 down
7.30 awake (rocked, back to sleep)
8.45 awake (fed, she sounded hoarse, was coughing)
10 awake (rocked, tried 4 times to settle back in cot, gave up after 30 mins, so she slept with me)
12.30 fed lying down
4.15 fed lying down, sucked for 45 mins, then when I took her off stayed awake til fed again at 5.45
8am awake for day.

I went to bed trying to think 'it doesn't matter what happens now, at the moment I'm only dealing with the putting her to bed off the breast issue', and it meant I didn't feel I was failing on the rest of it.

How were your nights?

[tinierclanger]

That's great, sounds like it's going in the right direction! Deffo the attitude, to just focus on the one thing and not worry about the others.

We had a great night, think this may be just luck but am hoping it proves it can happen again.

Disengaged ok on the 6pm feed but had a bit more of a struggle than usual getting DS to settle and he had to be picked up and rocked and cuddled quite a few times until finally properly asleep at 7.

7pm down
11.45(!) fed, disengaged with keywords
05.15!!! fed, disengaged with keywords
05.45 up for the day

So I am thrilled with that. Also managed to get DS down for nap relatively easily this morning (yes, he was ready for bed again by 6.30!) and he is now on second nap of the day (in pram, so cheating, but again, no tears from either of us).

[kayjayel]

Wow, sounds good! That must help with the early start.

Scifi - how are you doing today?

[tinierclanger]

Back to a rubbish night last night.
6pm feed then
7pm bed - took quite a while to settle
11.45 fed, disengaged with keywords
02.30 fed, disengaged with keywords
04.40 fed, disengaged with keywords
05.00 awake again, managed to settle with cuddles
05.10 awake again, managed to settle with cuddles
06.10 up for the day, and fed again

think I should have fed for longer at 11.45, I was tired and not thinking clearly, and just took him off at first opportunity. Also maybe should start doing nappy change at this one.

How was everyone else?

[kayjayel]

Rushing for nursery run, but sorry you had bad night. Again I had loads of success at her falling asleep in arms, not on breast, then she woke 2 hrs later, then 2 hrs later, and then from midnight I felt she sucked continually until 6. Too tired to do anything about it, everytime I took her off she protested a lot. I may try putting her in the cot tonight and start that bit.

Not sure if she's teething - pink cheeks, rubbing ear a lot. But no sign of teeth and DS didn't get them til 9 mths. And she's not distressed or hot with it.

[tinierclanger]

Well DS is def teething and he's only 4 months...