I am actually going to lose it soon - it's been a year - child psychologist help?

[DorrisMcWhirter]

Dd1 (3.6) is driving me round the bend - quite seriously so. I can see myself snapping soon.
She is still awake, having gone to bed at 7.30. This is nothing unusual, she is regularly awake at 11pm. During this time she is calling downstairs and up and down all the time. She still gets up between 7 and 7.30am.
So far we have tried:
shouting
rewards / sanctions
staying with her till she falls asleep ( the most boring 3.5 hours of my life)
leaving a light on
turning all lights off
stairgate on door
letting her read
stopping her read

and pretty much anything else you care to think of.
She is shattered during the day and, as a result, really grumpy, but still she won't sleep.
We try to keep her as active as possible during the day. We have a steady bedtime routine.
So, what on earth can we do next? DH mentioned the possibility of trying to see a child psychologist today - how do you do that? Would it work anyway?
So very, very sleepy

[DorrisMcWhirter]

Please? HELP ME!!!

[FrazzledFairyFay]

I don't have any advice, I'm afraid. But it does sound awful, you have my sympathy. I would think that a trip to your GP would be the first step to getting referred to someone who can help. It sounds like you desperately need help for your own sanity. Good luck

[AvenaLife]

Have you tried ignoring her/putting her back and ignoring her? It sounds like you are giving her alot of attention, which she's got use to.

[Hopeysgirlwasntbig]

POOR YOU, can't offer any advise, but wanted to bump you.

Good luck, hope you get some words of wisdom here X

[Littlefish]

Oh Dorris, I didn't know about this! Poor you. There used to be a sleep clinic in your town, based at the Children's Centre (not the one where you used to work, the other one - B.C.).

I've got no idea how you get to see anyone there, or even whether it's still there, but it might be worth phoning them to find out.

Would she have a sleep during the day again? Do you think she is overtired when she goes to bed?

Have you tried burning lavender in her room before she goes to bed, or putting lavender in her bath? You would need to check the strength of the lavender etc. What about a homeopath or cranial osteopath? (Oooh, get me with my alternative therapy ways ).

I promise not to talk about dd and her 13 hour sleep marathons when you come round next week

[DorrisMcWhirter]

Avena - we've done ignoring and putting back. To no avail I'm afraid. We ignore it but she still carries on and doesn't sleep iyswim.
Yes, GP appointment may be on the cards.

[Littlefish]

Am losing my nerve now about whether it was actually a sleep clinic, or rather, a HV with a sleep specialism.

[Friendlypizzaeater]

My LO was prescribed finegan (sp) an anti hystamine to break his non sleep cycle, once we got him back into a pattern (about 5 days) we stopped using it but it made all the difference.

You have my sympathy

[Slubberdegullion]

Oh God. Poor You. You have my deepest of sympathies. dd2 was a terrible terrible sleeper (mostly awake in the early hours rather than not settling when we put her to bed).

I'm not sure what to suggest...

Lights off (or one nightlight on the landing)

Reward system so she just stays in her room

Nowt to play with in room (maybe a few books)

Return to bed technique if she comes out of her room.

I'm sure you will get some replies of someone who has been through it and found the magic solution.

[Slubberdegullion]

phenergan FPE

[objectivity]

Dorris I do Sleep Training but several personal issues have got in the way over the last 18 months so I am currently out of work for the most part - have npo decent childcare in place and so on...

However, when I was in my prime I was very successful with the old sleep training so if you want some free (save transport costs) I will come and help. (Have good refs, etc.)

Just say.

[DorrisMcWhirter]

Hi Fishy!
Sleep during the day is a no no, she just won't, unless it's in the car on a long journey. Even after a car nap though, she sleeps no better at night.
Will try googling sleep clinics in our area.
No, no mention of 13 hour sleeps at all. Infact, lie to me if you will and pretend E doesn't sleep at all!

[Anna8888]

Dorris - my daughter is 3.8. She has never gone to bed before 8.30 pm in her life and then only a handful of times. Her normal bedtime, on a school night, is 10 pm (up at about 7.45 am).

I think you are putting your daughter to bed far too early and as a result she is working herself into a frenzy and then cannot sleep.

IMVHO, you should just forget about bedtime and wait until she asks to go to bed because she is tired. Give her control over her own sleep patterns rathat than trying to control her

[AvenaLife]

the GP can prescribe some sleeping medicine (it's a sedative, the same as certain travel sickness medicine that you can get over the counter-phenergan). It doesn't always work for some children, others it has odd side effects. Have you tried exercise to make her tired? Warm milk also has a sedative effect, as does a story read in monotone.

[CarGirl]

My dd3 was a dreadful sleeper when she was nearly 4 I took her to a cranial osteopath and it made a huge difference, she started getting to sleep more quickly and stayed asleep - heaven!

The other thing is that she may not be producing enough melatonin a chemical our brain produces to tell us when to go to sleep. If you don't produce enough then it is very difficult to get to sleep.

[DorrisMcWhirter]

Objectivity - what area are you in?

[DorrisMcWhirter]

Thank you for all replies! Cranial osteopath is something I hadn't thought about - cost would be a problem at the moment though.
Interesting idea about no set bedtime. I will try it but fear she will just be up and wide awake down here going on and on and on....

[objectivity]

Herts - just checked your location before posting so it wouldn't be a problem.

My last contract was March to May 2008 doing Maternity with newborn plus sleep training with older sibling and I am returning to them later this year as they were very happy.

Am v.happy to forward details as reference.

But just sensed your desperation and wanted to offer help as I have received plenty myself through mumsnet.

I have had 100 percent success rate with all clients.

Not a sales pitch as I am not currently formally working doing behaviour stuff, but am happy to put past experience to good use if it helps? ;)

[CarGirl]

Yes even though dd3 is now much better at staying asleep she rarely sleeps more than 9 hours, even when she started full time school it made no difference she doesn't need a lot of sleep but sometimes is very grumpy and difficult because she needed a bit more than she got. Doesn't do drowsy either one minute is awake the next asleep and always wakes up completely alert regardless of what time of night you wake her!

[Anna8888]

Yes, if you get rid of bedtime she will be up and about for rather a lot longer than she is at present and it will take her a little while to get used to the concept of having control over her own bedtime.

Why the 7.30 pm bedtime? That really is extremely early.

[Littlefish]

On a practical note - when you come next week, Slouchy & I will play with your dds in the garden and you can nip upstairs for a sleep.

[DorrisMcWhirter]

Desperate really sums it up objectivity

Your offer of help is like a light at the end of a very dark, very long tunnel! DH's eyes have just lit up!

We are quite low on funds of any description at the moment (transport costs of course would not be a problem) but would not wish to presume.

Could you email me? honormatopoeia @ live.co.uk

Thank you

[Littlefish]

Anna8888 - I'm afraid I have to disagree. I don't think 7.30 is extremely early for most 3 yr olds, even though it is for your dd. I would say it is probably about average from what I've read on mumsnet. Most 3 year olds on here seem to go to bed between 7.00 - 8.00pm.

The fact that Dorris's dd is "shattered during the day and, as a result, really grumpy, but still she won't sleep" suggests that the late bedtime is not suiting her, but that she's struggling to settle herself.

[DorrisMcWhirter]

Anna, the 7:30 bedtime has just sort of hung around, although, by the time we have read a book etc it's 8pm. What is a usual time for a 3 year old to go to bed (just curious!)?

[DorrisMcWhirter]

Littlefish - I may seriously take you up on that!! (I'll bring my own blanket and pillow!)