Almost 4 YO - at my wit's end

[kimball]

Please help. I don't know what to do anymore. My eldest is almost 4 and bedtime with her is an absolute nightmare.

Brief history: the first 18 months or so she was so easy - napped well and slept through from about 20 weeks. We always stayed with her until she fell asleep.

Approaching her second birthday, she was still napping well but started to fight bedtime and it was taking up to 2 hours some nights to get her to sleep. So we decided to sleep train her. It was rough for a few nights but after that she would sit and play in her cot and within 20 minutes she would be asleep.

This is where it all went wrong. We moved out of the 1 bedroom place to a bigger house where she had her own room. I was pregnant with our second and decided to put the eldest in her own room from the first night. In our culture cosleeping is the norm. We had so much pressure from family members that we need to help her settle in the new house and it would be too much for her to be left alone in an unfamiliar place. Well, we caved and here we are, more than a year later one of us still lying with her until she falls asleep. This can be anywhere between 10 minutes and 4 hours!

It is absolutely breaking us. We both work full time, minimum 10 hours a day. Our youngest goes down at around 7 but is an early riser. The baby's still in a cot in our room. We take turns to do bedtime with the eldest and the bad nights (which are most nights) DH and I actually fall asleep before she does from sheer exhaustion of work and the stress of bedtime. This leaves us no time in the evening to be ourselves, forget intimacy and everything else. One of us is passed out in the eldest's room, the other sleeping alone in our bed.I just feel so helpless and really starting to resent the whole situation.

She moved out of the cot to a double bed. Our routine is milk, toothbrushing, bedtime story, lights off. Then she would move around the bed, talking/singing to herself, sits up, tries to talk to us (I always ignore her, DH is a sap and usually engages), asks for water, asks to go to the loo, it just goes on and on. No crying whatsoever, unless we leave her room . She is happy but I feel it is getting to the point where it is affecting our marriage as we literally have no time as a couple. I am also petrified what will happen with the baby as we are obviously totally inept at dealing with the sleep issue. We had a great sleeper and we got it so wrong and turned the situation into what it is.

Tonight, after 2 hours of the same shit, I snapped. Just left and is now sitting outside her room, listening to her crying and wailing 'why?', 'I don't understand ', 'daddy, help me', alternated with her running out onto the landing, being picked up and returned to bed, ad infinitum. This has been going on for 45 minutes.

Please, please help. I feel utterly hopeless.

[crazycatlady5]

That sounds tough. It sounds like she’s been left scared to be in her own.

Have you heard of the rabbit who wants to go to sleep? It can come as a book or audiobook - look further down the sleep thread, called ‘what is this withcraft’ - people have been raving about it x

[selectcopypaste]

I just posted something similar. I can feel your pain. Hang in there!

The only thing I can say is that you have to sort the older one before the little one is older and understands. I left it too late and now have a 5 and a 2 year old both not sleeping and every day I sit in their bed room crying.

I am considering sleep consultant.

[Frouby]

Following as my almost 4 year old has started being 'difficult' at bed time.

We did the rabbit story thing. It worked for 3 nights then at the end he asked for hisntv on as the rabbit is boring. Sigh.

It's nearly 10pm most nights. He doesn't kick off if we leave the room. We are just up and down every half an hour. I can hear him now mooching around.

[limitedscreentime]

How much time does she actually get to spend with you if you are working 10hrs a day? Please don't think I am being critical - I wonder if (triggered by moving and new baby coming so feeling unsettled) she sees this as her time with you and the demands are more about 'testing your love', ie seeing how much you will do for her? Plus avoiding bedtime so she can spend time with you. I don't really know how to solve it - more quality one on one time with her when you get home? We are in the same place with our second, I think he sees it as his baby free time (baby usually asleep earlier). I'm now trying to ensure we have a chat about him and his life, things that have made him happy/sad to try and connect. It does seem to be helping but early days.

[kimball]

Thank you everyone. She finally went down by herself last night not long after I posted which gives me some hope.

@limitedscreentime - I think you hit the nail on the head about this being the one on one time she needs. Unfortunately we cannot work any less but we have some flexibility and we always make sure one of us is home by 5ish every evening. We have a wonderful nanny who helps with the baby which is the only thing keeping us sane but baby hardly gets any attention from us at the moment as the eldest dominates our time and things cannot carry on in this manner.

I think I will tough it out for the next 2 weeks and do as @fucksakefay suggested. Do you think it's better if we just stick to me tackling bedtime with the eldest during this transition or should DH and I still alternate?

Thank you for the rabbit book suggestion @crazycatlady5. I think I will keep that as Plan B is my plan of attack. It does sound promising from the reviews on Amazon.

@selectcopypaste @Frouby sorry you are having similar problems. I hear you loud and clear about cracking this before it becomes a problem with the baby too. That is my worst fear.

I will report back with progress.

[Gunpowder]

DD1 was like this at the same age. The thing that worked for her in the end was getting a subscription to audible and letting her listen to storybooks. We read her two or three stories then put on her audiobook, cuddle her for five minutes then go out. The first time she comes out of her room/calls for us I go back and cuddle her for a second 5 minutes but put on a more boring kids meditation type thing, if she shouts again it goes off completely. At 8.30 it goes off regardless. I honestly thought one of us would have to sleep with her forever so don’t despair.

[kimball]

Day 1 - we have been explaining all day about how big girls sleep by themselves and the behaviour we would like to see and she seemed on board. All was going well until we finished the bedtime stories and I said I was leaving the room. She cried and shrieked I stood by the door and picked her up and put her back on the bed.

Each time I get back out the door she was out of bed and pulling the door open again. This happened about 40 times until I asked if she would stay in bed if I sat on the floor inside her room, to which she agreed. So I did and turned off the night light. She sobbed for 2 minutes and then she was asleep.

DH found the blood curdling screams too traumatic so did not participate tonight.

I may have got it wrong with leaving the room so tomorrow night I will offer to sit on the floor again and hopefully she will get used to that before I attempt to move out of the room.

Feeling guilty seeing how upset she was but I keep telling myself it's for the good of everyone in the family.

Thank you for all the encouragement.

[crazycatlady5]

Doesn’t sound too bad OP, just wondering, why did you turn the night light off? Is she scared of the dark? X

[kimball]

We normally turn the night light off after story time as otherwise she gets up to fidget with the curtains, trace her finger on the wall decal, etc.

I just did it out of habit, I suppose. But during the getting up and putting back down episode, the night light was still on. Only after we agreed I would sit on the floor did the light go off.

Yes, time wise it was not so bad but the intensity of her anguish was worse than I had anticipated.

She woke up this morning and asked if I can sit on the floor tonight so I will take this as a good sign.

[kimball]

We had a breakthrough last night.

I have been doing normal bedtime routine and then saying goodnight, leave the night light on and sitting outside her bedroom until she falls asleep. For the last week or so she would scream, cry and get out of bed multiple times (20-30) and all in all, it was taking between 1.5 to 2 hours to get her to sleep each night and it was very stressful and upsetting for both of us.

Last night she seemed to have accepted the new routine. She asked if I will stay outside her room until she falls asleep and she got up 5 or 6 times to check that I was still on the landing and once she saw that I was she took herself back to bed again. After 45 minutes she had fallen asleep.

I'm hoping this will continue. Thank you to @fucksakefay for the advice.

PS. we tried the Rabbit audiobook but it didn't work on her at all. It just seemed to freak her out and she kept saying she was scared so I had to turn it off after 10 minutes.

[SandysMam]

Was following with interest as we cracked our 4 year olds issue by staying upstairs and pottering around while he fell asleep. So instead of lights out, silence, where the hell are mummy and daddy, I brush my teeth and take my make up off in the bathroom, put some washing away and generally have a tidy up. DP does downstairs and within 20 mins the kid is asleep, the house is sorted and I am make up free and in my pj’s, ready to chill for a bit before bed!
Well done for last night though, sounds really positive!

[crazycatlady5]

That is brilliant OP!! Sounds like you’re really getting someone and it sounds much less distressing for you x

[kimball]

Thank you for the encouragement everyone. Both DD1 and I have been ill the last 2 nights so DH has been doing bedtime the old way

I am back in charge tonight so hoping we can continue with the new routine.

Wish me luck!