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Is this a suitable scenario for CIO?

(45 Posts)
gg44 Mon 16-Oct-17 08:22:41

I know some will say there is never a suitable scenario for CIO/CC, this is a question for this who’ve used it/ know a bit about it.

I don’t really want to do it, so I need to feel confident that this is the right situation for it, or I think I will crack, which is obviously worst of all worlds.

My boy is nearly 7 months, has self settled from very early on, and slept 7-7 from 16 weeks.

For about three weeks now, he has added in a night wake up always around 3 o’clock. If he doesn’t fully wake up, he always does some sleep crying (I can see on the monitor that his eyes don’t open at any point, and he’s clearly asleep in between wails).

To start with I put it down to a growth spurt, and offered a feed as this was the only thing that seemed to work. I always give a very small feed- 90 mls/3 ounces, slightly overdiluted, as I want to prevent as far as possible him getting used to overnight calories. However, I think if it were a growth spurt it would have stopped by now.

He is also getting his first tooth, but I don’t believe it is pain related, as when I have given Calpol in addition to a feed, it has made no more difference than when I have only given feed. He has not bee grizzly during the day and seems pretty unaffected by it.

Therefore, I think that this additional wake up has become a habit.

I don’t think it’s relevant, but during this three week period of the night waking, I have stopped breastfeeding. It has been a very gradual stop, by the end I was down to 1 feed a day. The waking habit has remained exactly the same throughout the transition though, so as I said I don’t think that’s a factor.

Have also been weaning, and he’s taken well to solids, but is still taking the same amount of milk as he did before, so I don’t see that it’s hunger related.

I know one night wake up is hardly the end of the world, but I can’t get back to sleep after the 3.00 wake up, so it’s actually having a big effect on me.

Any opinions on whether CIO/CC is suitable / would work, or any other suggestions?


TittyGolightly Mon 16-Oct-17 08:28:10

Isn't the advice not to do CIO/CC before a year now? (Wild horses wouldn't persuade me to do it but I'm sure that's what I've read.)

There's a massive development leap at 8 months. Seems a bit unfair to punish your son for his brain developing by leaving him to cry, but it's your choice.

TittyGolightly Mon 16-Oct-17 08:28:48

Don't underestimate the comfort factor of breastfeeding too. It's not just about food.

crazycatlady5 Mon 16-Oct-17 09:01:11

I am not someone who would ever use these methods on my child so I appreciate you’re not looking for my opinion, but 7 months is waaaaaay too young. Their sleep changes constantly in the first year, I would suggest adjusting your expectations (in a nice way!) and riding it out.

I think most people who use cc will agree that 7 months is far too young.

crazycatlady5 Mon 16-Oct-17 09:01:58

Also count yourself lucky, my 9 month old woke 3 times last night and I’m astounded as that’s a really good night for her!

ScrunchyBook Mon 16-Oct-17 09:10:30

Their sleep changes constantly in the first year, I would suggest adjusting your expectations (in a nice way!) and riding it out.

Well said, totally agree

BerryBee Mon 16-Oct-17 09:48:03

I struggle to get back to sleep too so I do empathise. Perhaps focus on how YOU can get back to sleep as, with respect, you're likely to encounter other night wakings over the years for a variety of reasons.

I use mindfulness techniques to help me stop my brain wandering and keeping me awake with too much thinking.

From what I know, to answer your question, no, CIO is not suitable in this situation.

BoredOnMatLeave Mon 16-Oct-17 10:32:03

I would also say 7 months is way to young. Also I wouldn't dilute the feeds, they tell you not do this this at all, it could be part of what's disrupting him? I know it's really hard but it probably is just a phase.

riddles26 Mon 16-Oct-17 10:41:10

I used a sleep consultant when my daughter was 5.5 months and the literature she gave me said that 7 months is a good age for CIO as in most cases they are not standing up yet and don't get themselves worked up as much as when they are older. If it was a technique I was willing to use (I don't have the strength to do it), I would trust her knowledge and qualifications over anything that is said on an Internet forum.

However, I would definitely not do it in your circumstances. It sounds like your baby is going through developmental leaps, adjusting to having been weaned from the breast whilst also possibly teething at the same time. If they slept well for so long prior to this, there is every chance they will go back to that when they are ready. Also, the bigger problem seems to be you struggling to get back to sleep, not baby waking up once and going back to sleep again so like a pp said, I would reshift my focus to finding a way to get back to sleep.

crazycatlady5 Mon 16-Oct-17 10:49:27

I would also trust baby development and psychology experts who say CC/CIO is damaging to development over anything that’s said in an internet forum - it goes both ways smile

TittyGolightly Mon 16-Oct-17 11:05:20

What qualifications does a sleep consultant have?!

riddles26 Mon 16-Oct-17 11:25:07

@TittyGolightly the consultant I used had previously worked as a IBLC consultant and also completed a sleep consultation qualification. She has then worked as a sleep consultant for more than 5 years and since writes as a sleep expert for magazines together with holding regular workshops for parents and healthcare professional. I assure you, I thoroughly researched her and her qualifications before proceeding grin

@crazycatlady5 I challenge you to find a good quality study that says that CC/CIO is harmful to development. This does not include unfounded claims made by Sarah Ockwell Smith and the like. As I've said, I haven't gone down the route myself and hope I won't need to but I don't believe it is wrong in all circumstances.
Also, I'm not advising the OP to trust my comment on this forum - moreso to consult a professional herself if she still wants to go down the route

MaisieDotes Mon 16-Oct-17 11:29:12

No. He's only waking up once and he's still tiny.

Maybe try "pick up put down", not cc. I don't think cio is ever recommended, is it?

As pps have said, they go through phases, you have to roll with it.

crazycatlady5 Mon 16-Oct-17 11:34:50

I am not arguing with you about it @riddles26 I was merely pointing out that it works both ways. Many things founded and unfounded can be said in an Internet forum. I don’t believe the peer reviewed studies that show NO damage are credible because the study was on young children not on the LONGterm effects CC and CIO have.

Either way, it feels totally unnatural to me and I won’t be risking it whether a sleep consultant tells me it’s ok or not smile the very line you wrote ‘don’t get themselves worked up as much as when they’re older’ makes me feel totally uneasy. They shouldn’t be worked up at all as far as I’m concerned. Bedtime is supposed to be relaxing and peaceful.

TittyGolightly Mon 16-Oct-17 12:09:30

As an aside I find it amusing that Jo Frost is now presenting a programme about child psychopaths. grin

riddles26 Mon 16-Oct-17 12:53:55

But there are no long term studies so it cannot be said that it is harmful either. Additionally, all retrospective data collected on now adults (a generation where the majority have been sleep trained in one way or another) has also drawn no causal link. It really irritates me when people come on here and suggest that others are harming their child - they are not causing harm. Babies don't get as worked up because they physically can't stand up and bang their hands and head on the cot - that's not a bad thing.

People often talk about how much they've suffered with regular wake ups as though it's something to be proud of and shows how resilient they are. In reality, when sleep is that poor, it is detrimental to health of baby and mum and something should be done (there are multiple robust studies to confirm this) - certainly doesn't mean baby should be left to cry alone but having a baby wake up multiple times in the night for long periods consistently over extended periods of time isn't good for anyone.

It's a case of risk benefit analysis and we have to do what we believe is best for our baby. If my daughter doesn't sleep well, the difference in her mood is obvious. She is grumpy and clingy, she doesn't eat well and then the cycle continues. We didn't use CC but we did sleep train as an absolute last resort and she has thrived since we did, it was amazing having a happy baby all day. My only regret is not doing it earlier as she missed out on a lot of sleep by me refusing to do so. If we now have a bad night where she wakes 3+ times, it is clear by her mood during the day. As we have worked hard to create positive sleep associations, she fortunately catches up over the following day. So while I say I would struggle to use CC, i imagine I may consider it if her sleep deteriorated to the point we were at prior to sleep training and nothing else was working because I know it's what she needs.

Some families may need to use it for the sake of parents circumstances or mental health too - they also aren't harming their baby but merely making the best decision for their circumstances.

In this case, I completely agree with both @crazycatlady5 And @TittyGolightly 's advice but I just wish posters wouldn't say these things are harmful as there is nothing to suggest they are, it's a case of what's best for a particular family.

FATEdestiny Mon 16-Oct-17 13:13:51

We didn't use CC...

Is spaced soothing something different to controlled crying riddles26? When your baby almost exactly the same age as OPs baby (6.5-7 months) you talked, in this forum, about doing "spaced soothing".

riddles26 Mon 16-Oct-17 13:23:35

@FATEdestiny I said if she was grumbling or whinging, I would use spaced soothing techniques to allow her to settle as my presence often meant it escalated into crying when she would fall asleep after max 2 mins grumbling if I didn't go in. I didn't, however, let her cry alone. I have always said this.

crazycatlady5 Mon 16-Oct-17 13:35:30

@TittyGolightly good grief!! grin

FATEdestiny Mon 16-Oct-17 13:51:48

So she was left alone when grumbling or whinging? That then becomes the subjective use of language. Let's say what you call whinging, I call crying. Your grumbling, my screaming. There are lots of words used for "baby not happy" noises, crying is tge most commonly used cover-all word for all kinds of "baby not happy" noises. The use of the word "crying" does not change the fact that there are different levels of crying. But all are crying.

If we then work on the assumption that spaced soothing and controlled crying are much the same thing (I think they are), we can translate your post to:

if she was crying, I would use controlled crying as my presence escalated the level of crying. So I left her to cry alone

If you want to get snipey at other posters and their Holier Than Thou anti-sleep training stance, your moral high ground is completely lost by your "I'm not strong enough to leave baby to cry" equally Holier Than Thou blatant lie selective memory.

You did do CC. At the same age as the OPs child. Having very recently significantly reduced breastfeeds overnight and in a newly weaned 6-7 month old who was slow to establish BLW.

I don't know if this use of CC was long term, short lived and ineffective or what the use or outcome was. Because you don't like to talk about your use of CC.

You are possibly the best placed person to talk to the OP about your experiences. Whether it helped, didn't help, or anything else you learned from the process. To do this you need to bloody well own the fact that you did this, instead off pussyfooting around the subject. Your advice would be much more helpful if you did.

riddles26 Mon 16-Oct-17 14:02:00

@FATEdestiny, I know the difference between a cry and a whinge and there is a very very clear one where my child is concerned.

I am not going to argue or justify my parenting choices to you as there is no point - as I know bitterly from past experience, you will continue to attack me anyway and will just get nastier and nastier as you don't know how to back down and only you can have the correct opinion.

I really don't understand your ridiculous obsession to try catch other posters out by pulling up old posts or by pointing out that someone may have changed their name (as you recently did with another poster on this thread). Everyone on here is posting in attempt to help another parent, what do you have to achieve by trying to belittle others?

riddles26 Mon 16-Oct-17 14:13:55

@gg44 in spite of conclusions other posters have drawn, my situation was different in that the only time my daughter used to whinge and I leave her to soothe herself would be when I put her down for the first nap of the day. I did not leave her more more than 2 minutes (which is the equivalent time a parent of multiple children will often have to spend dealing with one child before going to one that is whinging). Additionally, she used to consistently wake between 3 and 5am for a breastfeed up until she was 11 months so I always used to feed her at the time your one is currently waking.

If you would like me to share any of the bits I learnt from the sleep consultant, feel free to send me a pm and I will be happy to.

Pebbles17 Mon 16-Oct-17 14:16:50

Have you tried wake to sleep ? My Daughter was totally night weaned but got into a habit of waking at 1:50 every single night without fail and would then take AGES to get back to sleep. She wasn't unhappy, just wide awake!

So we set an alarm for 1:20, roused her slightly so she came out of a sleep cycle and went back into a fresh one therefore skipping and breaking the habit. We did this for 5 days and it worked like magic.

To add, she is an absolute pickle with her sleep and I doubted that anything would work on her sleep issues but this did!

FATEdestiny Mon 16-Oct-17 14:17:12

There's a definate difference between a cry and a whinge. And a scream and pain and when angry... and all the other levels of crying. That's my point: crying is a sliding scale. Controlled Crying is going to be most effective at the right level of child development and when the crying is on the low level end.

You did CC at low level crying for a short total amount of time, exactly as a good sleep trainer would advise. For whatever reason you choose not to use this experience to help others, like the OP, preferring instead to pretend what you did wasn't CC.

I was just pointing out the OP is considering CC very similar circumstances to when you did it, at an identical age. But you choose to advise against it, here which is interesting.

Orangebird69 Mon 16-Oct-17 14:23:12

COO is not CC. I wouldn't do neither but ffs don't do CIO. Leaving a baby to cry itself to slept with no intervention is just cruel.

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