The no cry sleep solution

[crazycatlady5]

Can I get some views on the NCSS? I'm wondering whether or not to buy it or will it be yet another baby product I've wasted money on to add to the pile

My baby is 7 months old, I've done everything parent led which I am happy with but there are a couple of things I'd love to be able to change. I feed her to sleep which always works but then if I move she wakes up constantly - be it 10 mins, 15 mins or 40 mins later. It means constant resettling at bedtime so I have no evening at all. I had friends over the other day and I had to keep nipping back upstairs, just not ideal. I would try to settle baby downstairs but there is just too much going on and then she gets frantic and overtired.

She does the same for naps too. I'd really like to be able to try to gently encourage her to sleep independently. I don't even mind constant night wakings id just like to be able to leave her for nap times and at bedtime for a little while.

Would it be a good book for the above?

[crazycatlady5]

If not can anyone recommend any way for me to achieve these things in the most gentle way possible?! We currently don't really have a routine of any kind and I don't know where to start.

[Misstomrs]

My friend has been using the no crying method and I have to say that her son doesn't nap well and doesn't sleep through the night at 1 but she's fine with that. She's happy to be completely flexible with him because she's quite a relaxed person anyway. I, on the other hand, like structure and routine. My LO fell into his own routine at about 5 months (once we got his CMPA diagnosed) and we followed his lead really. I did a week of controlled crying to settle his naps down once I was happy I knew when they were - 1 in the morning, 1 in the afternoon. I then did one day of controlled crying to get him to sleep through the night. Clearly he was ready! I actually felt bad for not doing it sooner (11momths) because he had been struggling with overtiredness for a few months before that.
I don't know if any of that is helpful but I guess it's a way of saying it's up to you. If you're not happy with how it is now then listen to your baby's natural rhythm and then re-enforce it when you're confident with a little controlled crying. I never let my LO cry for more than 5 minutes and sat on the stairs watching the monitor so I knew he was safe. He also used to stop when I went in to settle him and used to laugh sometimes too so I knew he was fine, just testing me. You do have to stick to it though. If you crack they will apparently just keep going the next time because they know from experience if they keep going you will eventually come back. For day naps it probably too a week of 15 - 20 mins to settle each time, for night sleep it was one evening of 45 mins.
We also use a dummy and a teddy. Invaluable now he is at nursery.
HTH and good luck!

[Misstomrs]

Ps - I have read some of the no cry myself and it didn't seem to advocate expecting sleep through the night etc which wouldn't have been right in our case. I also found it a bit preachy, but then I do a lot of parent guides.
At the end of the day it's totally up to you. Apologies if your thread now gets taken over by people flaming me for controlled crying. It worked for us, but we're all different and you have to strike a balance between what's best for you both and what you feel comfortable with.

[crazycatlady5]

Thanks so much Misstomrs! Really appreciate your input im not sure I could do cc but then my girl is only 7 months so probably too young for that sort of thing anyway. As you say perhaps at some point I'll realise she is ready for that sort of thing!

Wondering if I can somehow implement a routine and that might improve things?

[Grayfig]

I have used / am using the NCSS with some measured success. Also have a 7 month old DD. Reduced bedtime from 1.5hrs to 15-20min, improved naps from 30 min to often 1.5hrs, and starting to go down more awake. Still working on night wakings. When you say " if I move she wakes up constantly", what do you mean? You feed her to sleep on your bed and when you leave she wakes at some point soon after?

[crazycatlady5]

Hi grayfig - yes so if I lie with her for naptime she'll nap an hour or so, if I leave the room she'll last maybe 20 mins. It's the same in the evening, I feed her to sleep and wait until I feel she is in a deep sleep, put the monitor on and just sit staring at it downstairs as I know it won't be long before she wakes! It's usually 20 minutes, no more than 40, and I need to resettle her by feeding her back to sleep each time.

[crazycatlady5]

One thing I haven't tried is leaving her to see what she does. I will see she wakes up and then I run up to her. The other day I left it about 5 mins and she was just rolling around, but then I caved and went in. Not sure if I should just leave her and see if she drops back off or cries out for me?

[crazycatlady5]

...the reason I tend to rush up is she starts looking around for me frantically and I feel guilty!

[Nowombattheinn]

The no cry sleep solution book brings back memories! I think it may work for some but this was the book I ended up loosing it over and it got chucked in the bin in the middle of the night - with me telling it “you are shit and a liar!” I would not recommend it.
From your post I think I was similar to you in that I didn’t want to do cry it out and I also fed to sleep. The sleep deprivation was starting to take its’ toll by 7 months and I was desperate to sleep – mine would be awake for three hours when she woke up at night if I didn’t cuddle back to sleep and time the ‘put back in the cot’ correctly. I remember the same evenings of being up and down the stairs whilst people waited for me and I used to be up there for ages. We used a dummy in the end at 7 months and when she was older (I think it was super nanny recommendation?) I just went in and shhshed and didn’t communicate at all and just kept going back and putting back in the cot saying sleep time and a quick head stroke (a lot of times to begin with).
Cry it out did work for a lot of people I know but I just knew by baby wouldn't like it and I didn’t think it would work and she is still loves me to cuddle her to sleep now and she's 7 (I haven't had to do this for the last 7 years btw! she just likes it if I do and would happily have me do it everyday if she could!)
I think you may both benefit from a routine at nap and bedtime and I wish I had the solution for babies just staying asleep but maybe some babies are just like that?! And they will eventually settle themselves!

[Grayfig]

OK. I'm no expert but have had similar problems to you (waking after bedtime, crapnaps, having to feed back to sleep 6 times a night!!). It's maddening having no evening but you can get it back. Firstly, I believe waking soon after bedtime can often be due to overtiredness - a build up of cortisol from poor daytime napping. Many babies can be fed to sleep at night and sleep long chunks even if they have a boob association. Especially at nighttime when the sleep drive should be high. So getting better daytime sleep may help here, however you can achieve it.

The NCSS teaches you how to break the "only boob to sleep" association. It's a bit of an involved process (google Pantley Pull-off" but it works for many. Essentially they can go to sleep (and back to sleep) without feeding all the way. It should reduce nightwakings eventually as well as improve naps, and allow you to do some settles without feeding overnight.

You can start some associations other than BF - white noise, a lovey, a sleeping bag etc. For a routine: we use - bath, same book every night, start music, breastfeed (putting down more awake each night), bed. That is how we reduced the bedtime to under 30 minutes. For nap time routine...nap at the same times each day - using her tired cues, and a short routine, perhaps the music and sleeping bag etc, closing the blinds etc. Again eventually putting her down more and more awake.

Still working on this, but this week for the first time she went from wide awake chatting to asleep in her cot in under ten minutes. Haven't replicated it yet...but now I know she can do it!

Happy to PM you if other questions. In answer to your Q - I think it is well worth buying (if you are the patient type!).

[BeyondThePage]

I think you need to see what will happen if you don't rush in immediately.

We didn't do "sleep training" at all, just put them to bed (did not feed to sleep, surely they wake up with wind if not burped?) and expected them to sleep and didn't panic if they were a bit fractious for a few minutes.

You get to know your own baby's cries - but only if you do let them cry sometimes...

[FATEdestiny]

I lie with her for naptime she'll nap an hour or so, if I leave the room she'll last maybe 20 mins

Have you considered something like the sleepyhead grand? Not sure if she's too old for this and I know it's expensive, but you can use in the middle of your bed when cosleeping.

The idea would be that the design of the mattress gives wrap-around feeling that lingers after you leave the room.

I think the central theme of NCSS is to adjust your expectations to accept night wakes and being needed to get baby to sleep are not "bad" or something you should be seeking to avoid.

(In my view the dummy is the best no crying sleep solution of all time!)

[crazycatlady5]

Wow thanks so much for all the helpful input!!

Nowombatthein I have tried a dummy sooooo many times with no like. I tried religiously for about 3 months with no luck (well a small amount of luck when she was tiny but she started to reject it more and more) then I got one two weeks ago out of desperation and she just will not have any of it. She just chews it. I may have considered even putting chocolate spread on it but then thought better of it!

FATEdestiny I've seen you give some many tips with the dummy, think I have ANY luck with a 7 month old? And I do have a sleepyhead - not the grand yet she is still in the deluxe but to be honest I do think she may have pretty much outgrown it. Perhaps I'll pay the extra for the grand!

Grayfig yes that all sounds about right really. Although the days she has a lot of sleep I have noticed various night wakings (between 8pm-1am) but maybe not as much - hmm. I'll have to experiment. She used to WITHOUT FAIL sleep solidly 8.30-1 until the darn 4 month sleep regression hit! I guess maybe I have to pick my battles? Try to encourage long daytime naps (staying with her the whole time if need be) in order to encourage better bedtime? I would LOVE to start some sort of routine. The day (for sleep) currently looks like:

• 8/8.30 we all wake up after husband snoozes alarm 15-20 times!
  
• Play downstairs and then without fail she is tired again within 30/45 mins of being awake so naps roughly 9.15am. If I lie with her this can last till about 11. If I leave her I'm lucky for half an hour.
  
• after last wake time she usually lasts 2 hours and then has a nap. These are anything from 30mins to an hour.
  
• daddy comes home around 7. If it's bath night he baths her about 7.15 (perhaps we should start doing bath night every night)
  
• after bath she comes downstairs (I imagine this isn't ideal!!!)
  
• she will show sleepy signs anywhere between 8-10, it's never the same, sometimes she fights it until 11! If it's earlyish I'll feed her on the bed, hang around for maybe 15 mins to check she's in a deep sleep and then come downstairs. Cue having to resettle about every 20 mins.
  

So our day has no structure whatsoever, we're not very 'routiney' people but I don't want that to have a detrimental affect on her and also if having a routine helps with regaining an evening, I'll try anything!

Sorry for long post!

[crazycatlady5]

@nowombattheinn I've just realised your name is 'no womb at the inn', I couldn't figure out what 'no wombat the inn' meant

[Nowombattheinn]

[crazycatlady5]

Me again! @grayfig, @FATEdestiny - is it worth trying an earlier bedtime, so bath and book between 7-7.30 and then feed to sleep?

[FATEdestiny]

I'm just trying to work though the routine you gave, to work out actual sleep (ish times are all that's needed - nothing exact).

8.15am - get up
9.15am - 9.45am nap (if left)
11.45am - 12.15pm nap (if left)
7.15pm bath
8pm-10pm asleep

First - is that get up time also wake up time? Has baby been awake for a bit when you get up, if so from what sort of time? Or do you literally get up as soon as baby wakes up. In short - what is baby's actual wake up time in the morning?

Second - that is a humongous awake time in the afternoon. Not sure if I am understanding correctly? Did you mean several naps each seperate with a 2h awake time? That would mean:

2.15pm - 2.45pm nap
4.45pm - 5.15pm nap
then the 7.15pm bath.

(All these times are give-or-take, just for the benefit of me understanding. Rather than anything exact)

It's difficult to answer your bedtime question without better understanding of your current routines.

[crazycatlady5]

Hi FATE yes sorry I meant the second one! So mostly it's predictable that she'll have 2 hour wake time throughout the day :)

[crazycatlady5]

So she's asleep upstairs and has been for an hour, I can't quite believe it. The only thing I did differently was after her bath I took her straight to the bedroom instead of downstairs to wind down. She didn't sleep for a while but I fed her in the dark with the white noise on until she went to sleep. Progress already, or possible fluke! We'll see!

[FATEdestiny]

There you go, sounds good to me!

I was going to say that if you maintain 2h awake times all day, it would be reasonable to assume a 2h awake time between last nap and bedtime too.

It is always the case that bedtime needs to be flexible, it depends on how naps have gone that day and in particular when the last nap finishes.

[crazycatlady5]

It has now been two hours! This is the longest time I've had to myself since she was born seems bedtime can essentially be pretty flexible as you say but not too long after last nap and perhaps bedroom straight after bath to wind down. Might not be plain sailing from now on - don't want to get my hopes up - but it's been a positive start!

[FATEdestiny]

Awake time based routine - it's the way forward, I love cyclic routines. So if baby wants to do 2h awake and 30m asleep cycles repeated all day, that's great. Then 2h from last nap equals bedtime, whatever time that happens to fall.

As baby gets older, or if naps get longer, then maybe the final awake time before bed will stretch. But while 2h works, I'd stick with that.

[Grayfig]

Yes, I would try earlier bed after the bath and book. I used to think mine just didn't want to sleep till later (9pm) as I would keep having to resettle her till she finally fell asleep. I was wrong. She needed the knowledge that it was bedtime, which came from the fixed routine and same time to bed nightly, and now naturally sleeps at 7.30 and wakes 7.30. The routine is just another form of conditioning!

Rough routine is 7-7.30 awake, 10-10.30 nap for around 1 hour, 2-2.30 nap for 45min to 1.5hr, bedtime 7.30. Usual awake time before bed is 4 hours.

[crazycatlady5]

She slept from 8.30-midnight without waking! I feel like it MUST be a fluke, can't imagine I could be that lucky again!

[Riversleep]

My DH used to call this book 'The no sleep cry solution'