Pantley Pull Off

[MrsGSR]

My 13 week old wakes after 30 minutes-1 hour of sleep. At night she will only feed to sleep (and only breastfeed, sometimes she'll take ebm from a bottle but it won't send her to sleep).

The Pantley method was suggested to me on here, which sounds really good, but she shuts her eyes as soon as she latches on so I can't take her off before she falls asleep. Is there anyway to modify the method? Or any other tips that might help her sleep? We've tried a cot (as opposed to a moses basket), white noise, swaddling, a sleeping bag, a hot water bottle on the mattress before she goes down, my shirt over the mattress, tilting the end, a bedtime routine, different bed times, gaviscon, colief, dentinox, infacol and a formula feed before bed. Nothing works and I'm close to breaking down.

[elvislives2012]

Argh it's so hard! I think 13 weeks is too young for sleep training? General advice is not before 6 months? This is all normal as she is still so little. Feeding to sleep is good it's what it's made for. Can u co sleep? It may help. Best advice is to go with it and do nothing else. It does get better and doesn't last for long. It's so hard tho and I'm about to do it all again

[MostlyCake]

Can you wake her before putting her in her cot?

[Mepmep]

We has exactly the same problem! In the end, DS kind of just grew out of it and by 16 weeks it became much easier to settle him for bedtime without feeding. I read somewhere that you can try getting them to settle without feeding for their morning nap first of all, as its the easiest.

I really didn't want to do sleep training so I practiced getting DS awake into the cot for the morning nap, and resorting to all other methods for other naps and evening (pram, feeding...) this went on for quite a few weeks - we started at 12 weeks. It was a nightmare! So much crying. I also realised a lot of the crying was due to me putting him in the cot too early and things improved massively when i figured out his wake time (which changes week to week!) By 16 weeks he was settling without feeding in the morning only, and by about 17-18 weeks managed most bedtimes. It took ages and we are still not there 100%. I think what also helped him disassociate feeding from sleep was getting him to nap in the pram regularly - not ideal, but it got him used to the idea of sleeping without being held or fed.

I still feed close to bedtime and naptime but try to distance it a little from sleep. For instance, I would feed DS then nappy change, then into sleeping bag then cot. Now, after many weeks it works but when he wakes at night, he can't re-settle on his own. He's 19 weeks now.

I don't know if that's helpful at all! But I was also at my wits' end, especially with naptime. Things really improved only as DS matured!

[MrsGSR]

I was worried 13 weeks would be too early, but she's not getting enough sleep so she's suffering, and last night I didn't sleep until 6 when DH took her, which is fine when he's off work but next week he'll only be able to take her for 2 hours a night. I don't think I can survive on 2 hours a night! I can't really nap during the day and by the evenings I'm lightheaded and feel sick. I wouldn't leave her to cry, and I don't expect her to sleep through the night, I'd just like her to sleep for more than an average of 45 minutes!

During the day I rock her to sleep in her pram, but she still stirs every half hour of so and I rock her back to sleep or she wakes up. It seems she can only manage up to an hour at a time without help!

[Poughle]

I'd pop her in bed with you... She'll still wake but hopefully it won't disturb you as much. Or she may wake less because your breathing/warmth will soothe her. Is this an option for you?

[MrsGSR]

She won't latch herself on, we've tried cosleeping after DH leaves for work but she unattaches every few minutes then cries until I relatch her, so I still don't get any sleep! She will sometimes sleep on me whilst I doze, but I hate doing it as I panic that she will overheat

[Poughle]

Hmm that's no good then. Normally I wouldn't do this, but if you're desperate... Do you have a battery powered swing she will sleep in, at least for part of the night?

[MrsGSR]

We just bought one yesterday, she's been refusing to fall asleep in it but it does keep her asleep for a bit longer. I can use it for naps if nothing else, and maybe get a nap myself :)

[Poughle]

Sometimes there's no one magic bullet, just lots of small adjustments that get you closer to the goal. Really hope you get the sleep you need soon!

[SS3J]

Have you tried a dummy? Bit of a risky suggestion I know as you might just end up having to put it back in every 30 mins. However, what I was thinking was that if you know she isn't hungry then you can give her the dummy to settle her and try removing it before she is fully asleep (like the Pull off method you were trying). Also, if she is feeding purely for comfort a dummy might help you space out the feeds.
My DD was exactly like that and what helped me was getting her daytime feeds sorted first so that the was feeding regularly in the day but with a decent gap between them. This meant she got full feeds rather than snacks. It helped her go longer at night too.
I hope things improve for you soon, sleep deprivation is so awful!

[MrsGSR]

I've tried giving her a dummy, she makes a (very cute) disgusted face and spits it out! I've tried holding it in for ages, as soon as I let go it's gone. I'll try going longer in between feeds in the day though, see if that helps!
Thank you all!

[PartyFops]

Try a book called sensational baby sleep plan. It worked for us and everyone I have recommended it too . Dd is 3 now so I can't remember the whole concept but I keep getting told by friends how helpful it was.

Good luck

[PartyFops]

Sorry, just to add to that, try feeding more during the day rather than less.

[MrsGSR]

I do a really long feed at night before bed, feed on demand during the day really. Feed, play, sleep, repeat. I'll see if I can find the book on Amazon, thank you :)

[DelBot123]

You are me a few weeks ago!!! My daughter is now 23 weeks and exactly the same as yours. I feel a little relieved im not the only one! I have been doing the ppo for a month now. I feed my lo lying down (in my bed) and once I can see she's stopped suckling and swallowing I slowly pulk my nipple out, she usually fusses and tries to get it so I put it back in, repeat many times but eventually she won't try and remains asleep. Another good way if you're lying down is to position your nipple so its a little awkward for her to get I.e. she has to face upwards. As she falls asleep her head will roll to the side so she'll slip off the nipple. Again, she may search for it several times just put her back on and eventually she'll give in. Patience is the key. She now goes down in about 10 minutes max

I haven't seen any massive improvements I'm afraid to say. However occasionally she'll surprise me and do a 4 hour stretch or turn away after a feed anf fall asleep on her own. Baby steps ey! I plan on keeping it going like that until she's 6 months (in 3 weeks) yhen I'm going to try feeding her in my arms until the same stage and then putting her down.

[AndIFeedEmGunpowder]

Oh you poor thing. What a nightmare. DD was similar and we got her tongue tie snipped and her sleeping improved loads, has your DD been checked?

I hope the sleeping fairies come tonight.

[fuzzywigsmum]

I've been doing the PPO too on DD2 who's about the same age. I don't think you do it necessarily when the eyes close but when the sucking slows as babies often close their eyes when feeding but are awake, however if they're asleep they're not really feeding properly. It took a lot of goes before she started letting me pull her off and TBH she still often complains when I put her down, so I have to shh her and pat her to settle her. Sometimes it works and the she stops crying after a minute or two otherwise I start again. It's definitely getting easier and I hope that I'll gradually be able to put more of a gap between feeding and going to sleep. Of course the problem with this more gradual approach is you won't get overnight results like you might with some other sleep training methods but there you go. Have you tried just rocking her til she's sleepy then putting her down and shh-patting her, so that you remove the boob/sleep association altogether?. It's more laborious than feeding til sleepy but worked for me with DD1. I disagree with a lot of the Baby Whisperer's approach but she explains this technique quite well but I'd only recommend reading her books if you can trust yourself not to believe all her crap about routines!

[MrsGSR]

I'm pretty sure she doesn't have tt, my DH and his nephew did so me and my MIL checked her, and got the doctors to double check! I'm worried she might have upper lip tie though, feeding can be quite painful unless I physically flick out her upper lip, it naturally curls under. I mentioned it to the doctor at her 6 week check and he said he'd look into it but haven't heard anything since. I'm not sure how much of a difference it would make though?

I'm quite critical of all the routines I read so I'll take everything the baby whisper says with a pinch of salt!

[VeryPunny]

13 weeks - this all sounds very normal! IMO it's too young for any kind of sleep training and you're probably still in growth spurt territory.

Someone upthread recommended the sensational baby sleep plan - a friend lent it to me and I was horrified - it's basically leaving a baby to cry, and all about how parents MUST win the BATTLES their child is fighting. It's also in no way supportive of bfing.

Can you get a lactation consultant to check for tongue tie? Painful feeding is ringing alarm bells here.

[MistletoeBUTNOwine]

Hi mrs gsr, my DS is EXACTLY the same as your DD
I've bought the NCSS book going to give it a whirl. Comfort feeding and not wanting to be put down it's a flipping nightmare!!!

[MrsGSR]

I was thinking growth spurts might be involved, but she's always been like it and it's pretty much all the time. She's never done more than 5 hours, and only did that twice! I have a few friends with babies born the same month (theres been a surge of babies at DHs work!) and most of them do 6+ hours, one is breastfed and 2 weeks younger than DD and does 11-7. I consider it a great night if she does one 3 hour session! The HV was supprised by how little she sleeps and is getting someone to come and give us some advice.

I definitely won't leave her to cry, people keep suggesting it but I really don't want to. I'd rather just be sleep deprived!

Most of the time feeding isn't painful, it's just when she curls her top lip under. She sticks her tongue right out, would she be able to do that with tt?

[Swannykazoo]

Hey mrsGSR - I 'know' you from the Jan 14 thread. Just to say mine's the same - eyes closed when he feeds and as he's falling asleep little phases of sucking so there's no obvious time for the PPO. Never got the whole "coming off when finished" when he was a tiny either. You are not alone (bugger knows what to do about it though!)

[MrsGSR]

Haha, thanks puggle, it is good to know it's not just me!

Slightly dreading tonight as DH is working early so can only take her for an hour, I'm staying down in the living room until then so be gets decent sleep, if not all that much of it! Trying to persuade her to sleep in her pram.

[Woody31]

Hiya, I would definitely double check your LO does not have tongue tie. You could get someone like www.ann-dobson.co.uk to have a check. Tongue tie would mean your babe has to work doubly hard to get milk and in the process will get exhausted meaning they sleep but not for long before getting hungry. Sorting that will really help. I would also persevere with a bottle of EBM or formula in case they find it easier to feed from. Things do get better and easier! Stick with it and your LO will settle down soon . They are still tiny at 13 weeks. Good luck for tonight :-)

[MrsGSR]

Thank you, but I am almost certain she doesn't have tt. She can stick her tongue out really far, probably over an inch. Every website I've read says she wouldn't be able to do so with tt. They also say that her weight gain would probably be slower than average, it's actually really fast for an ebf baby. She was on the 50th percentile when born, she's now at 14 weeks just under the 91st! (Little fatty!)

Upper lip tie is a slim possibility as she is often sucking in her top lip and curls it under for feeds sometimes, but apparently the nhs won't do anything for it, and again as she's putting on weight so fast it's very unlikely!

I think she just hates sleep, I often really struggle to get her to sleep as she keeps forcing herself awake! Once DH spent ages rocking her to sleep, only for her to open one eye and then physically shake herself awake!