A different view to "I am Spartacus"(278 Posts)
I have had the time to read a lot of your comments about Transgender people not being biologically the gender they wish to be. It is a very sad day when parents are not able to share the hopes and dreams of other parents. It is a sad day when other parents cannot understand the pain and anguish of other parents when their child is in so much pain that they want to die.
Now I know what you are about to say, if they get help then they would not have a problem and they would be fixed. In the DSM 3,4, and 5 Gender Dysphoria is a real problem. It is not something made up to lead people to the Devil or anything else that crazy. By the way if you go to a Physiologist or a social worker they use the DSM as a guide book for issues of the mind. Though this year it is being discussed to remove the issues of Gender Dysphoria. Now if you try to discount the issues of Gender Dysphoria then the little happy pills some of you are taking must stop as well.
Let me try to give you a little light... I respect your views as it is your right to have them. But giving you the right to have your views then you must accept the right given to others to have the view that they are not what their body says they are.
When it comes to children who are feeling the way that they are, would you not do ANYTHING to keep your child alive? Hormone blockers do not cause boobs to grow. They do exactly what they say they are going to do. It puts off Puberty, it does not stop it. They are used to see if the child is going through a phase. Now to the issues of physical sex (penis and vagina) those of you saying that they are the only two genders need to understand that you have been proven incorrect by 99% of the medical community. There is a physical sex called Intersexed for those of you who don't know that is what used to be called a Hermaphrodite. Now this does not mean that they were born with born sets of equipment. What it means is simply that some of the traits of both sexes are included. Meaning that you could have a child born with a penis and a set of ovaries. Now saying it is a "normal" condition, in the past surgery was chosen for children born with this condition. The suicide rate was very high for this group cause a lot of the time the doctors got it wrong. So if you look at a seesaw penis on one side and vagina on the other intersexed sits in the middle. Their is a sliding scale in the three, this is being proven with the markers now are wider than the simple XX and XY. Though the majority are XX and XY. It is possible that some of the mental traits are linked in a different fashion than what was thought. If you accept that being Gay or Lesbian is not a mental illness then you have to look at the Transgender issue as not an illness as well but as a mental trait similar to being Gay or Lesbian.
Furthermore we must also look at what the Transcommunity are saying compared to what is being said by the media and the politicians. The Transcommunity does not say they are the other gender, they are saying that is how they feel they are. This is something that is hard to understand and digest. So let me try to help your thoughts. In the morning you wake up you don't see your body. You feel your environment around you. Go to the bathroom, eat breakfast, brush your teeth and then you are at the point where you have to get dressed you look at your clothes and you feel like wearing Red. Okay now lets look at a Transperson they wake up they feel their environment around them. Go to the bathroom, but don't look in the mirror, they eat breakfast, they brush their teeth, they try to avoid the mirror. They get dressed they go about their day hoping to make it one more day. Then it happens, it snaps they can't keep doing this. This is not life, this is existence nothing more. Something has to be done, not that they want it done. They would love to be the "Norm" but they can't it is more than a feeling of RED. It is something wrong deep in their soul. They do not feel connected to the skin they are in. So what do they do, some give up, some crawl into a hole, some end it all, some fight it until it kills them, some say I have to Transition. They worry about the cost of the choice but what is the other choices if they don't. They want to live just like the "Norm". So they feel closer to the XX or the XY. So they try to live like that to make it. Now to debunk some of the crazy ideas that the media and politicians pounding into your head that is incorrect.
*Men can Breast feed, the glands are there and all they have to do is be activated.
*Transpeople do not cause problems in the bathrooms. Here is why Hormone blockers for Transwomen shut off Testosterone . That is male hormone that cause the erections, sex drive and some thought patterns associated with some forms of perversions . IF that Hormone is not working then those are no longer issues. Because news flash without the hormone erections well 90% are gone. Sex Drive is changed to an emotional connection vs physical connection.
*When it comes to parenting most Transwomen become more in tune with their children.
*No they don't perverse their children in to any form of gender role in fact they hope that their children do not have the same issues.
*When it comes to pronouns what is wrong with a little respect? They are not punishing you for being the "Norm". Call you out for dressing like a slob, bogan, white trash, or any thing else. In fact Transpeople for the most part are more inclusive of your feelings cause what they go through.
You might wonder where my in site comes from. I live it.... My story would shock and scare some of you, if I was your child. I would welcome you to read it aleanasjourney.com/about/ . In fact if you questions ask me, don't assume cause I assure you the truth will help you understand me. I wish you the best day no matter who you are or who you want to be.
If you are hoping for empathy or understanding, this isn't the place. I predict this thread will kick off, as most trans threads do.
Hope you have a hard hat...
To be honest, their is not need for empathy in education. If people wish to remain in the dark about a subject of humanity then that is their choice. But a choice without education there is not hope for understanding. All I am doing is opening the door if people wish to walk through they will be met with kindness and understanding.
Sorry aleana I tried to read that but there are no paragraphs and the sentences are too long. I got as far as when you tell us there are not two biological genders there are also intersex people so I'll respond to that and what else I picked up;
1- if my child was suicidal I would want to do anything to help him. If that meant supporting him to have sex changing surgery and call himself a feminine name etc I would probably do that if I thought the alternative was suicide. That doesn't mean I would believe he was actually a woman.
2- puberty blockers halt the process by which gender questioning children move through that phase (ordinarily 80% of them) and become non trans adults. Puberty blockers more or less guarantee the child will go on to transition. Puberty is a vital stage of development and halting it is morally wrong.
3- nobody gender critical will say there are only two biological genders. There are two biological sexes. We know about intersex people but that doesn't mean there are not only two sexes. The existence of people born without legs doesn't mean human are not a two legged species. Intersex is also nothing to do with trans - trans people are not intersex.
I commented on the spartIcus thread that I thought it was pretty vile.
I think you description is heart rendering. I am sorry you are likely to get pretty short shift on here.
I can't help thinking that at some point in the future there will be a more balanced and open minded approach. and we wI'll look back at stuff like the I sparticus thread as outdated hate speak. I hope so at least.
the pronounsame things seems to me to be entirely about respect for your fellow human being, or lack of.
The pronouns issue is about respect for material reality and reluctance to widen the definition of 'woman' to a point where it becomes meaningless and we no longer have words to discuss female lives, existence and oppression
I know intersex people who are royally fucked off that their physical medical condition is being hijacked by the trans activist movement to justify their shit.
I believe that gender dysphoria exists. But it's a mental condition. It's a mental health condition. You say as much up there. Would you go to a depressed person "oh yeah, youre right. You are a shit person and everything is shit and you should probably just off yourself"
Would you go to a person with anxiety "absolutely a car could come around the corner, Mount the payment and hit the kids, you should go home and stay there"
Would you go to a person with body dysmorphia "absolutely, you ARE ugly and deformed and repulsive, you should have surgery or hide under layers of clothes or long hair and if that doesn't work, just kill yourself"
Then why on gods earth would you tell a person with gender dysphoria that they ARE the opposite sex? WHY? It's cruel, it's untrue, it compounds their problems.
I know what it's like to love someone who is repulsed by the body they live in. My DP has body dysmorphia. He doesnt look in the mirror if he can help it. He thinks he's a collection of glaring flaws, that he's deformed and hideous. Nobody would dream of agreeing and suggesting a shittonne of surgery to fix it, least of all a Dr.
My only hope for others is that they are understanding and respectful of other human beings.
I care not whether someone identifies as male or female, as I equally don't care if someone is black or white, or if they love men or women.
I care that people spread hate about others because they don't meet their "ideals" for what a human should be, think and feel. It makes me so beyond angry, I can't explain it.
For the issues regarding female identity and female oppression, I understand this issue. But it's an ongoing cycle. Women have been and still continue to be oppressed. Gay men and women have been and still continue to be oppressed. Black men and women have been and still continue to be oppressed.
The only way to break this is to remove the hate (or intolerance) of anyone who is different to you. If you have suffered from oppression or are part of a group of people that have been oppressed, then you can understand how it feels to be judged based on something you have no control over.
There are people dying all over the world. There are terrorist attacks daily. What the world needs is to stand united against hate, all of us together. Men, women and children. No matter how they look or what they identify as.
But giving you the right to have your views then you must accept the right given to others to have the view that they are not what their body says they are
This, I totally agree with. But if you then spend the rest of your post patronising and scolding people using inaccurate and misleading information, you're not convincing me that you really believe that other people have the right to a different viewpoint.
The rest of your post is very long and hard to understand, and there's one bit that really jumps out at me. Intersex conditions and transgender are entirely separate conditions. most intersex people reject any connection between the two, indeed many people with intersex conditions find attempts to conflate the two very distressing.
I've not clicked on to your website, but I want to finish by saying I wish you personally no ill. The problem that people here want to highlight is the political issues caused by transactivism, the intent is not to pick on individual trans people.
I'm sorry that your life has not been happy or straightforward. I'm sure lots of people can empathise as it is not unusual at all.
My impression is that by presenting as a trans woman, you feel you are getting a fresh start, perhaps even being a new person.
I hope this makes you feel happier. However, I cannot imagine how strange it must seem for your dad to present as mtt. I hope they get support.
I've tried to stay away from all of this-it's quite upsetting. But what I will say to you op is that the message I'm getting isn't that anyone (posters debating the issue on MN) has a personal issue with transwomen, but the problem is with a section of the movement who are anti feminist. And who are eroding women's rights and spaces through the use of words like cis, or making out that a transwomans penis is a female penis and should be adored by lesbians because failing to do so is transphobic.
This isn't about not wanting tortured people to live a tortured life. It's about co-existing in such a way that women remain women (aren't othered) that women's right remain and aren't diminished and that women are entitled to say those two things.
There's much more to the debate than my tuppence worth, but there will be other articulate posters along shortly to share it with us all.
Men can breastfeed?
You assert that transpeople do not cause problems in bathrooms butnweve heard of cases where some transpeople have. You also talk about the hormone blockers diminishing sexual desire and leaving mtt without the ability for erections. That may be true but, again, we know that some mtt do use their penises for sex. Tara Hudson for one. And, if I understand correctly, self identifying mtt don't have to take blockers anyway.
I'm no authority on transgender issues. I'm really still learning about it all. I'm happy to use people's preferred names and pronouns and have no desire to upset anyone. But I don't believe it's possible for anyone to change sex, just as we can't change our race. We are what we are.
And, while yes, I would do anything to help my child, I dont believe that hormone blockers are the way forward for children.
And yes Julia. Transpeople should have rights...but those rights should not erode women's rights which is what a lot of the shouting is about. Women's experiences of being women are being erased, women's voices are being silenced and women's safe spaces are being compromised. But it is the vocal trans activists who are doing the damage to trans people, not women.
Self identification laws would mean that fully intact males with working penises and normal testosterone levels could id as women and use womens facilities. This is what is currently being proposed by the government and is already in place in Ireland.
From my point of view, I think acceptance of difference is in general is a beautiful thing. BUT: that acceptance should also mean accepting ourselves and who we are, rather than trying to change (physically, psychologically). This has been the point of the movement for lesbian and gay acceptance for decades: it fosters confidence in who we are, not a delusion that trying to change ourselves in order to conform to gender norms will make anyone happy. And that is where I have real problems with puberty blockers, chest-binding, surgery etc. It is the mistaken belief that changing something about yourself will make you happy. One doesn't need to transition physically to be happy, one can learn to accept oneself as one is. One doesn't need to label oneself as something other than what one is biologically. One can learn to behave and dress however one wants, within the sex that one was born into physiologically. This is what I will be teaching my kids: my son loves tutus, and balls, and cars, and dolls; my daughter loves animals and dress ups and trains and building stuff. This is also why I am deeply concerned that young children are being encouraged to "transition" before they have fully learned to accept themselves for who they are. If you want an example of this, here is an article today from where I live: http://www.mamamia.com.au/child-aged-four-starts-gender-transition/
The physical "treatments" that children are being given do have long term detrimental effects on fertility and sexual function. This is why many of us on here are questioning the current thinking on gender dysphoria.
We are not ignorant of intersex conditions. They are an anomaly, and a very rare one at that. They also have nothing to do with transgender issues. Nothing.
Your gender is not biological. Your gender is not biological. Your gender is not biological. How many times must this be said? Gender is a social construct. Sex is not. Look it up in the dictionary. Read a biology book.
You cannot change your sex. You are male, female, or if you belong to the teeny percentage of the population that is intersex, that is what you are.
When you say "the transgender community does not say they ARE the gender they want to be, they simply FEEL it, you're wrong. That is exactly what many (but not all) are saying. (Lesbian with a penis, anyone?).
Trangender is not a sexual orientation. It is nothing like being gay, straight, or anything in between.
Men can't breastfeed. To say otherwise is bullshit. Go ahead and link some bloke breastfeeding due to some less than 0% anomaly, but they can't breastfeed any more than women can produce copious amounts of testerone. If some bloke develops a pituitary problem and starts lactating, it doesn't mean 'men can breastfeed'.
No one has argued that some trans people are not in huge amounts of mental torment. Including children. Many believe that a lifetime of artificial hormones aren't the answer, and puberty blockers may in fact prevent eventual peace with the body that nature gave them and be a shortcut to becoming a lifetime medical patient.
There is an incredible amount of societal pressure on young girls to confirm to exaggerated gender stereotypes. I'm not surprised more and more are rejecting them in the most damaging way possible.
Transwomen have committed violent crimes of a sexual nature. There are plenty of examples.
Do you really think all transwomen take hormones? Really? Never heard of any who simply put on a dress and say 'I'm a woman?' No true Scotsman, right?
Oh, one more question/comment. I assume you 'feel' like a woman, as you say transwomen do?
What, exactly, does that feel like?
Well, that is your experience.
My view on this will never ever change, I don't care what people wear or identify as. I will roll my eyes in private if you tell me you are a man, woman,ostrich when you clearly aren't but say 'oh that's nice' or 'how interesting'.
I will not accept anyone with a penis in a woman only space -ever. My DD loves more stereotypical male games/things to do and wear,just like I did, I will not let her grow up in a world where this means she is encouraged to believe she is not female.
The sooner Gender stereotypes disappear the better.
JenBob on blockers for kids & whether or not trans women are women.
Others have articulated very well what I would like to say but I would like to start with the basics. Gender is not biological. It is not possible to change sex. Men cannot breast feed. Women should not be expected to give up their rights.
They do exactly what they say they are going to do. It puts off Puberty, it does not stop it. They are used to see if the child is going through a phase
It shouldn't be used to 'see' though. They can cause real damage. All the evidence suggests that if a child is allowed to go through puberty then it's somewhere between 75-95% (depending which study you're looking at) likely that the child won't go on to transition. Blockers mean they most likely will.
The spartacus thread, while I didn't sign it as I disagreed with some of it, is mainly about the men doing nothing but declaring they are women, not taking hormones, no intention of going for surgery.
I care that people spread hate about others because they don't meet their "ideals" for what a human should be, think and feel. It makes me so beyond angry, I can't explain it
Really agree with this.
I'm not sure why you have included a long explanation of intersex conditions. That is a physical medical condition, not related to transgenderism.
With regards to transgenderism and suicide. We now have more children transitioning than we have ever had before. We did not have the same number of children or adults committing suicide in the past when transitioning was not an option) was less available.
Believing yourself to be the opposite sex does not make it so.
What scares me the most about puberty blockers is that the brain isn't fully developed until after puberty. So if no puberty occurs, brain development is incomplete. And then the child is asked whether they want cross sex hormones and genital surgery?! It's frightening what is being done to children
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