This is bullshit thread #3

[HornyTortoise]

Following on from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2716917-This-is-bullshit-Thread-2

Open ongoing discussion welcome for anyone to join in.

Just tried to reply to see max posts were reached, hope this is OK to do...

[HornyTortoise]

To Helens post in locked thread...

I'm often told by feminists that having the operation is mutilating my healthy body and I should accept that I'm male and that's OK. And then I see the same women saying that they'd only be OK with people who are post op and it seems to be a contradiction to me. It certainly puts additional pressure on to have the chop.

This is extremely thought provoking when put like that. I would probably be one of those women who said both of those things. I would say, and I hope I do not offend here again..I am just going to write down my thought process as it happens as I find this is the best way to post completely 'honestly'.

It is perfectly ok to just be who you are, accept that you are male. You are a 'non gender binary' male I think is the correct terminology. But to me, you would be just a guy who doesn't conform to stereotypes. And that is fine.

But, for me to really class you as a woman, this would mean not having a penis and such.

However, if you chose to 'live as a woman' (whatever that means) I would support you 100% in doing so. Personally I would have no issue with sharing 'women only' spaces with you BUT I completely understand why others may have an issue, given you have a penis, something some people have been abused with for many years. For all intents and purposes, I would also refer to you as a woman, use the correct pronouns and such. Again, I understand why others would not.

This is entirely tailored to YOU. What I know of you from your blogs, your posts, hell even the photo on your main blog page, which to me..you are just beautiful. You look like a woman to me, but this does not mean you have to be.

Basically, I take people as I find them and the answer could be different based on the person.

I would not however, no matter how nice the person in question may be...EVER class a man with a beard, an obvious man with a penis, as a woman just because he says he is. I draw the line somewhere.

(Took me so long to write this that the other tread was locked by the time I finished)

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

Also to Helens post

I'm often told by feminists that having the operation is mutilating my healthy body and I should accept that I'm male and that's OK. And then I see the same women saying that they'd only be OK with people who are post op and it seems to be a contradiction to me. It certainly puts additional pressure on to have the chop.

I think the issue for me is what you mean people saying they'd be OK with.

I think if a TW passes then obviously they can use women only spaces with little protest. The thing is though, women only spaces are there for a reason and women will be uncomfortable with a male in their space. Is the answer to instead of declaring TW are women, to declare that TW are TW and they need their own spaces and safe places?

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

No no no - keep this one !

[HornyTortoise]

OK. Extreme crosspost fail here xD

[StatisticallyChallenged]

Jeez MNHQ are hot on the delete button tonight, the duplicate thread and the Transphobia thread were nixed in minutes

[Felascloak]

Helen I see what you mean re: social constr8cts and identification.
I think my issue is that "identify as" is so depersonalised and passive, it makes "woman" seem like an object and we aren't objects, feminists fight against that every day.
Saying "I feel like I should be a woman" is ok with me. I don't understand what "feeling like a woman" means but I can reasonably see that you can feel like that.
Saying "I identify as a woman" is not ok because no biological woman chose this. We just are, its not something we can identify into or out of.

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

It's OK, MNHQ have been shit hot and delete the other one


Basically, I take people as I find them and the answer could be different based on the person.

This is the problem though. Somewhere in all this fuzziness a line needs to be drawn (I realise TRAs would disagree with this). At what point does a TW become female enough to utilise female spaces? If it is the presence or absence of a penis, how on earth do you check?

And so we end up back at basic biology...

[FoxtonFoxFace]

Hot on the delete button but no answers forthcoming to poster's questions about the deletion policy.
HQ clearly doesn't realise how fucking angry some of us are and probably thinking this will all blow over. Silly little hysterical women?

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

Jeez MNHQ are hot on the delete button tonight, the duplicate thread and the Transphobia thread were nixed in minutes

Is it wrong of me to find this quite hopeful - they are being really fast at deleting things and yet all of these threads are, in the main, being left to stand.

[AGuyCalledHelen]

Saying "I identify as a woman" is not ok because no biological woman chose this. We just are, its not something we can identify into or out of.

Yeah I totally get that and it's why I never use that phrase myself. How could I identify as a woman because a) I haven't grown up being oppressed because of a female body, and b) what does it even mean?

My experiences are totally different.

[Ego147]

I think MNHQ should post any response on here or on their own thread as the Spartacus thread is a 'support' thread - and not on for all people.

[VeniVidiVickiQV]

In my exceptionally limited experience, synthetic hormones don't change how people smell but they can dampen smells, and males' sweat smells different to females' sweat (and yes, I have a ridiculously sensitive sense of smell - I've been able to smell when people are pg, or on their period, when diabetics need to inject or eat something, and lots of other really fabulous nuanced smells that I just love to be able to detect - no-one has ever been able to hide drinking or smoking from me either).

Not really adding to the conversation, but it reminded me.

ADHD is considered to have some comorbidity to dysmorphia and other MH conditions as well. It was interesting to read up on how it affects dopamine and norepinephrine transmission in the brain.

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

But how can you (in the broad sense, not specifically Helen) "feel" like a woman either?

It has been discussed before and generally speaking women said they didn't particularly feel like women, they just are women.

Is it a rejection of male gender roles and the desire for a female body that makes you feel like a woman?

[AGuyCalledHelen]

At what point does a TW become female enough to utilise female spaces?

Back in the good old days the rule of thumb was to use the loo you pass best in and keep yourself to yourself.

That's before the MRA's wanted to get in on the act.

[OscarDeLaYenta]

Ego - good point re MNHQ response.

[IfTheCapFitsWearIt]

I think "identify as a woman" means to identifty with the socially constructed expecations of what a woman is meant to be

If we can be honest about that then I don't think anyone would have a problem

YY

[Felascloak]

its all I know what you mean. But there are loads of things other people feel that I don't. So someone saying they feel like a woman or even feel female is ok with me.
Maybe its just semantics. Too late and I've had too much wine

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

Back in the good old days the rule of thumb was to use the loo you pass best in and keep yourself to yourself

And I think in the real world, the majority of folk wouldn't have an issue with that - it's a shame things can't be simpler

[AGuyCalledHelen]

Is it a rejection of male gender roles and the desire for a female body that makes you feel like a woman?

Yeah probably. That and identification with female behavioural stereotypes.

[OscarDeLaYenta]

I posted this on the Bullshit #2 thread in response to something Helen said about Alex Drummond. Is it really wanky of me to C&P it here? . There's been discussion of when are you female enough to use female spaces, so it's kind of relevant....

This is where Alex Drummond is coming from.

This is probably going to come out garbled, as I'm still working through the thought as I am typing.....

In a sense I agree with Alex Drummond and Danielle Muscato and all the bearers of 'lady penises'. (I have not gone mad - just hear me out!)

If, a transwoman is not and cannot become a woman, no matter what they do to themselves medically or surgically, and no matter how they present themselves in terms of name, dress, gendered behaviour, whether they do make those changes makes no difference to their sex. I argue that Danielle Muscato and Paris Lees are equally not women (and are therefore men) even though the former has not made any changes in outward presentation, whilst the latter has put a great deal of effort into achieving a highly and stereotypically feminised appearance. I consider them the same in that they both belong to the male sex.

So I am coming at it from this end. Alex, Danielle, et al are coming along the same path, but from the opposite direction. If you are a woman by virtue of the fact of having a internal female gender identity, your body is actually immaterial. It is your internal female gender that counts and that defines you. So if you were born into the 'wrong body', your body, whilst it may cause you emotional and psychological distress, is immaterial to you being a woman. Hence, there is no need to alter it in order to be a woman, because according to your definition of womanhood, you already are one. (Although you may choose to alter your body to alleviate any distress you experience.) According to this, Danielle and Paris are the same in that they are both women.

I agree with them that if transwomen are actual real women, then they are too. The point of disagreement is that I know that transwomen are not women. Womanhood resides in and is defined by biology, not an internal gendered identity. For them biology is irrelevant. For me biology is defining.

[JedRambosteen]

Jeez MNHQ are hot on the delete button tonight, the duplicate thread and the Transphobia thread were nixed in minutes

The mods are probably wishing the Ada Wells thing hadn't gone thermonuclear before a bank holiday. I bet someone has had to cancel their plans to come in over the weekend to firefight.

[BeyondLovesSweetDee]

Just marking to catch up on the morning. Also need to have a good long read of thread #2!!

[VeniVidiVickiQV]

The whole dysphoria thing is feeling restless with ones self and sense of being. Presumably that means that whatever sex you are, you are not going to feel like that is you. Almost like an ODD disorder, but against ones own actual being. Whatever/whoever you are, you don't feel like it's right, more that you are the opposing side of what you assess yourself to be.

[Ego147]

I was on HRT off the internet and had facial hair done before I 'officially' came out. Some people knew but not many. I was getting second glances from people - especially in summer.

I used to get some strange looks in the male toilets and I eventually had to stop swimming - getting changed in a male changing room with developing breasts is not a good idea.

So when I 'came out', I was already at a good stage. It did help a lot.