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Charter School North Dulwich-- Better than Indies for Gifted and Talented

(40 Posts)
LondonGirl83 Fri 14-Feb-20 21:16:44

I was looking up some information the Charter School North Dulwich's Gifted and Talented programme.

This is our local state school and their website claims that 100% of this cohort who are streamed together in a specialist programme achieve at least 10 GSCEs at A/A* and 100% get at least AAA for A-levels.

To get into the stream it appears you need to be around 5a in year 6 SATs which is very selective (probably somewhere around top 5%?) but even so that would have it outperforming pretty much every independent school in the country for this intake.

I knew it was already one of the top non-selective comps in the country but I had know idea gifted kids did so well here. Does anyone have a child in this programme that can say if its really as good as they are claiming?

www.charternorthdulwich.org.uk/news/?pid=15&nid=4&storyid=15

HugoSpritz Sat 15-Feb-20 14:40:43

So they put kids who perform in the top 5% of SATS and put them in a set with an outraged name and get them to achieve gcses and A levels in the the top 10-12%. Nothing particularly amazing about that.

May be better than some indies but not selective ones. If it is your local school and your child is likely to be in that group and you like the school otherwise go for it. What if they aren't though? Are the rest of the pupils catered for and achieving well.

SexIsAProtectedCharacteristic Sat 15-Feb-20 14:49:06

Nothing amazing about those results considering how selective they claim to be. It's well evidenced these days that selective schools don't really add any value to their cohort.

Y6 SATS no longer use NC levels so their material is out of date.

Hairyhattie Sat 15-Feb-20 15:09:27

Dd went there (first year at uni now so things may have changed) and was counted as ‘gifted and talented’. In all honesty, this didn’t change much. She did mandarin until the end of year 9 (with the option to continue it at gcse level) and an additional gcse in Latin although I’m not sure if the Latin was limited to the ‘GandT’ kids. There wasn’t really a programme at all- she was in top sets with other clever children but these sets were fluid and barely impacted by SATS results to my knowledge.

LondonGirl83 Sat 15-Feb-20 15:51:09

hugo yes all children do well there - it’s one of the top comps in the country with very high value add scores across the board.

No indies including those selecting a similar cohort get 100 percent A / A*. While being top 5-10 percent means your most likely grade is an A, statistically speaking within a cohort group there is still a good sized probability of some Bs.

I’m asking mostly as I’m curious on how they school is making the claim. It seems like they are leaving something out. Do kids take more than 10 GCSE’s for instance or are 4 A-levels typical?

Hairyhattie Sat 15-Feb-20 16:33:39

LondonGirl83 Back in the day, my dd did 12 although I know the number people do has decreased since. My friend’s dd who is in year 11 is doing 10 I’m pretty sure and is planning on doing 4 A levels although I don’t know whether this is still the norm

fishface1979 Sat 15-Feb-20 16:45:20

I'd also love to know how Charter compares to the selective independents close by like Alleyns, Jags and Dulwich College. It's so hard to make sense of the data. And now there are two Charters and I don't know where to start in terms of deciphering how they differ. There is a new Charter East Dulwich that we'd potentially be in the catchment of.

LondonGirl83 Sat 15-Feb-20 17:20:20

hairyhattie that’s really helpful. Even with 4 A-levels as standard, 75 per A/A* at A-levels would be extremely good.

I’m curious if their definition of the cohort is flexible so that they can exclude pupils originally included if they don’t progress as expected

Ratrace123 Sat 15-Feb-20 18:13:08

Is Charter a comprehensive school? Looks like they’re aping selective indies nearby which might impress some parents.
High likelihood of off rolling behind those stats.

LondonGirl83 Sat 15-Feb-20 18:37:42

Its a comp. I don't think they are off rolling in the traditional sense, but they might be redefining who is in the G&T cohort based progress made. I'd be curious to hear from parents whose children attend to just sanity check the information.

Its one of the top performing true non-selective comps on the country with huge value add scores so I'm not questioning that its a terrific school. I'm just really surprised by those stats which would be extraordinary.

TeenPlusTwenties Sat 15-Feb-20 19:33:49

If you are streamed into the specialist programme, are you guaranteed to stay in that stream, or do they move you out if you under perform?

What about a child who isn't in the stream at the start but then starts doing well?

I don't think comps should have 'grammar' or 'G&T' streams from entry. It goes against the whole point of comps. (NB I am talking fixed streams here, not flexible setting).

Ratrace123 Sat 15-Feb-20 19:42:23

If it’s non selective and based on catchment / distance they may benefit from the fact that it’s located in an area that sweeps up a lot of kids from affluent Dulwich and Herne Hill, who have engaged parents that value learning. Maybe look at distribution of pupils’ prior attainment from gcse results (should be on DfE website)?

I have friends who send their kids there - Charter is a highly popular state secondary in South London alongside Kingsdale Foundation and Graveney.

KF are renowned for cherry picking though through separate admissions lists / criteria.
Graveney have an extension set (based on high prior attainment).

Ratrace123 Sat 15-Feb-20 19:43:22

I agree with @TeenPlusTwenties

Hairyhattie Sat 15-Feb-20 19:49:02

Neither dd nor my friend’s dd (who still attends the school and so has up to date information) are set for every subject. Dd was only set for English, maths and science and the girl who is still there only for English and maths. These sets are flexible. I’m pretty sure the ‘gifted and talented’ programme is a lot more bark than bite.

Dozer Sat 15-Feb-20 19:50:40

It’s not “non selective”, it’s selective by “catchment”, ie DC of people who can pay for housing close enough.

Clymene Sat 15-Feb-20 19:52:35

They manage out children who they don't think fit. I wouldn't send any child there

LondonGirl83 Sat 15-Feb-20 20:26:25

Clymene I don't think they manage out anyone from the school. Its a comp, I live locally and have never heard that.

I do think the setting is flexible which just makes me wonder how they compile this stat. Is it just those that are still in the G&T set at the time they take their GCSE's rather than everyone who was level 5 on entry? If so then, its really not comparing apples with apples.

Ratrace123-- I'm aware the catchment is affluent but that's not really the point. The point is even when you filter it down to those who joined year 7 having attainment in the top 10% nationally, you wouldn't expect results as good as that across the board, even if the G&T stream are rich.

Ratrace123 Sat 15-Feb-20 20:53:21

Londongirl - I’ll ask my friend and repost my answer here if that helps? No other posters here are current families.

It sounds like a marketing spin to attract families who would otherwise go to the local indies. But obvs people don’t choose indies just for results.

Dozer Sat 15-Feb-20 20:56:05

The catchment IS the point. It’s a large school with a wealthy, well educated parent population. So you would expect the top performing students of that cohort to do very well indeed academically.

SW16 Sat 15-Feb-20 20:58:11

It is a comprehensive.
Admission is on distance, no aptitude places etc.

It does have quite a leafy intake though, alongside the usual S London demography.

I know several kids who go there and also teachers. It is a good school. There is constant monitoring and extra support at all ability levels.

It’s a good school with a representative number of high ability kids working with good hardworking teachers.

Why shouldn’t they be achieving great results?

SW16 Sat 15-Feb-20 21:05:00

It’s not “non selective”, it’s selective by “catchment”, ie DC of people who can pay for housing close enough

This is less of an issue since they stopped the nonsense about the path through Sainsbury’s thereby excluding the big estate, and moved to a straight line distance.

Also, like many schools they are very selective for 6th form. They demand higher (top) GCSE grades for A level subjects than Graveney do.

So comprehensive til Yr 11, then selective.

Ratrace123 Sat 15-Feb-20 21:08:03

What size cohort do you think the below stat comes from SW16? Bearing in mind it’s a large school? I have pasted from OP message:

100% of this cohort who are streamed together in a specialist programme achieve at least 10 GSCEs at A/A and 100% get at least AAA for A-levels*

SW16 Sat 15-Feb-20 21:15:53

Ratrace, I don’t know. I have honestly barber heard if this ‘specialist programme’ from parents I know with kids there, kids, or teachers! Or for having attended 6th form open days with a high achieving Dc who was offered a place (and didn’t go. I wish they had).

But I am on a mission to find out! (Will ask my teacher friends)

SW16 Sat 15-Feb-20 21:16:51

Er, ‘never heard’, not ‘barber’ confused

Ratrace123 Sat 15-Feb-20 21:33:10

Great @SW16 - think so many of us are curious now as to this amazing programme works at GCSE stage. I note the link on how the school achieved it has a ‘404 error message’!

There was a welsh school in the papers recently that got all its top maths set 9s. Incredible and that was just ONE subject.

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/entire-welsh-level-class-received-17602269

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