Another maths setting question...

[doctoroctopus]

I’m going to speak to school tomorrow but could anyone look at these figures?

DS started Y7. His SATS were 104 for maths and 111 for both English reading and SPaG (scaled scores).

His CATS are 86 quantitative and 99 for verbal. I understand the quantitative figure is below average. I think the issue for him is timing and being overwhelmed by starting secondary and I think he has rushed through the tests as he thinks finishing quickly is good!

He has been placed in Set 4 of 4. Does this look low? I would have expected the lower end of set 2 or set 3.

[doctoroctopus]

Just to add...it was mixed ability for the first month and reset 2 weeks ago.

[Hellohah]

I think it really depends on the school. I know at DS's school 105 on maths SATS is top set.
Others on here say their top sets are 115+ or 110+.
I don't understand the CAT stuff.

[TeenPlusTwenties]

I would say that if they discover he is in the wrong set at Christmas they will likely move him.

[LadyPenelope68]

You can't just go on his result alone. Whilst it's not a hugely low score, if there are the majority of children with a higher score then rightly, they will be in the higher sets, so he'd be in a lower set. You have to look at the cohort as a whole, last year he might have been in a higher set, but if results are higher this year, he'll automatically be lower set.

[noblegiraffe]

If they’ve only recently set them they probably used internal assessment data as well?

104 in my school would be mid set 3 but we have a small set 4. In another school it could be different. They may have also taken those CATs into account.

[RedskyLastNight]

They will have created sets based on their own observations in the first few weeks as well as CATS. So based on what they've seen so far, that's where they think he should be. How many classes are there in total and what is the intake like in terms of ability?

As PP said, if it turns out he's in the wrong set he will likely get moved at Christmas.

[Sunshine1239]

Dd got 106 maths, 108 spag and 115 comprehension and is top set for everything - there are 5 sets

I think that’s poor unless it’s private and everyone really clever? There were kids in dds class who didn’t meet standard and they’re the kids in set 4/5- they typically scored high 80/low 90 on Sats

[PandaTurtle]

In our old area the secondaries did not use SATS to set, only CATS and tests from their school.

Not sure where 86 would place him there but possibly would be set 4. What would be interesting to know is why there is such a difference between two test results? Not sure about secondary but in primary sometimes children were better off in lowest set where there were lower numbers and extra support than in set above with normal numbers and no extra staff. It should get reviewed at year end if not before but would be worth asking maths teacher at parents evening or an e-mail as to what he's struggling with. Sometimes it can be just a test in an unknown format.

[doctoroctopus]

200 in the cohort, with a split year group, so there are two ‘sides’ of the year. I don’t know about the rest of the year, but there are friends of his with lower quantitative CATS / SAT and they are in set 3.

[doctoroctopus]

It’s not private and is a ‘true’ comprehensive in that it takes pupils from both middle class and deprived backgrounds.

He’s quite immature for his age. His primary school was small and had high standards. He needs to put more effort in to show what he can do as he can be a but of a dreamer.

[TheFrendo]

The average (mean) score for maths SATS in 2019 was 105.

Normally CAT test scores have an average of 100, so 86 is low.

[TheFrendo]

Given your thumbnail of the school, I imagine he was very well prepared for his SATS.

[Teachermaths]

86 is low for CATS.

Do you think his sats reflect his ability or was he "coached" through them? On a general note we tend to find students who have scored just over 100 (101-105) vary massively depending on how "true" the sats score is. We hear of students being read to, sat in a small room etc.

105 would put you mid set 3ish where I am (possibly higher with good English score too).

[converseandjeans]

His SATS scores are good & DD got 109 in matts & has been put in top set. I was expecting set 2 & would have been happy with that. It's a large but high achieving secondary.
However the CATS scores do seem very low considering his SATS. I teach & students getting below 100 generally struggle a bit to keep up & would need more support in lessons.
I would ask to speak to someone as I agree that he would have been expected to be lower end of set 2/higher end of set 3.
Sometimes being in smaller group is good? Try not to assume he'll always be there.

[doctoroctopus]

Yep...I understand that 86 is low, but there are lower scores in the set above. I will contact tomorrow to see what the issue is.

[Teachermaths]

The school will look at all the information they have though. If they have done any internal assessments then these will count too. They will also look at your sons classwork, engagement, and general level of understanding.

[TeenPlusTwenties]

Why not just go with it for now?
See what he says about the lessons.
Make sure he asks for extension work if he finds stuff too easy.
Make sure he does his homework carefully rather than rushing through.
Then see how he gets on in the end of term test.

[doctoroctopus]

I know the primary very well and have no doubt that they would have prepared them well for SATS as they have excellent results. However, they do not do anything dodgy to do that (unlike another local primary that is well known to do).

He does find maths more of an effort than English, but always ‘gets it’ in the end.

[doctoroctopus]

Thanks all for your input. Will speak to the school about the situation and what we can do to boost his grades.

[converseandjeans]

How do you know so much about scores? I have no idea what anyone else in DDs year 6 class got. We haven't been told CATS scores yet you seem to know scores of other students despite them only being there a few weeks?

[lumpy76]

There is a marked difference so I would have him assessed privately outside of school. Maybe ask a kumon assessment centre to have a look? (Not used Kumon myself but have looked at their assessments and they look good). I wouldn't wait and see if you think your Ds has not achieved what he should have done or aren't sure. Once you have a better idea of where he should be you can either put in place extra help or approach the school to move him if necessary. Don't expect schools to always get it right - they don't!

[doctoroctopus]

We had a Y7 evening where we met the form teacher and they told us the CATS. I only know a couple - his friends from primary.

[RedskyLastNight]

I wonder if the "excellent preparation" his primary school gave him for SATS means that his SATS score may actually be flattering him, whereas the school are looking more at the CATS and their own observations? Perhaps without the support that the primary school gave him, in place, he's struggling a bit? (talking from personal experience here - my DS was very "handheld" through his writing SATS, with the result that, in Year 7, his English results looked like he'd gone backwards).

I'd wait and see how he gets on. If he finds the work super easy and aces all the tests and is not moved up at Christmas, then you can go in and talk to someone.

[CuckooCuckooClock]

When was he re-set? Is he actually finding that he is not being stretched in lessons?

[titchy]

If he's not confident, and 'bit of a dreamer', 'overwhelmed' with a v low cats, then a small bottom set group might be good for getting his confidence levels up.