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More money for teachers plus stricter discipline in schools - Tory leak

(84 Posts)
noblegiraffe Tue 27-Aug-19 19:27:53

A government document leaked today suggests plans for pay rises for teachers and support for stronger discipline in schools including mobile phone bans. The exemption for outstanding schools from the Ofsted inspection cycle will also be lifted.

There may be concerns about the mention of the use of ‘reasonable force’ as part of disciplinary measures. This is likely to simply be a restatement that yes, teachers are allowed to restrain violent pupils.

Nothing there seems particularly dramatic, it just shows Dom Cummings is back in charge continuing the Gove era policies.

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Piggywaspushed Tue 27-Aug-19 19:34:29

Hmmmmm... interesting...

The idea that the public narrative supports stern discipline often doesn't feel true on MN threads!

This is going to have very much pissed off the Ban The Booths people and also Paul Garvey at Talk For Teaching.

I shall sit back and enjoy the EduTwitter spat.

noblegiraffe Tue 27-Aug-19 19:44:03

Twitter is going mental because they think reasonable force means smacking the kids.

Which kind of implies that they think that smacking kids is reasonable confused

I can’t see anything really new or unusual except for starting salaries for teachers going to £30k (I’ll believe it when I see it), which would really fuck up the pay scales if not accompanied by a decent increase for more experienced teachers!

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Piggywaspushed Tue 27-Aug-19 19:46:35

It would wouldn't it!

Lookingsparkly Tue 27-Aug-19 19:48:34

Interested in the backing of HTs with regards to exclusion. I’ve found the LA nothing but unsupportive this past year!

Lookingsparkly Tue 27-Aug-19 19:50:24

Too many TAs though?! Not what I’m experiencing with TA cutbacks in primary!

YoureAllABunchOfBastards Tue 27-Aug-19 19:56:01

We will only get tougher disciple when we stop being hammered for exclusions. If a kid calls one of our staff a fucking cunt, I think it merits an exclusion. If they are repeatedly doing so, we need more.

Piggywaspushed Tue 27-Aug-19 19:58:58

There is definitely an anti TA movement going on

noblegiraffe Tue 27-Aug-19 20:02:47

We’ll only stop getting hammered for exclusions when people stop confusing correlation with causation when it comes to young people who are permanently excluded going onto a life of crime.

It’s probably not the exclusion that set them on that path, but the behaviour they were already displaying.

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noblegiraffe Tue 27-Aug-19 20:18:05

I could never have too many TAs in my bottom set Y10, unfortunately sometimes I had none. Those lessons were a non-starter.

Let’s sack the people who work day-in day-out with our most vulnerable kids and imply they’re no use anyway. hmm

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ABy1er Tue 27-Aug-19 20:44:41

I find it deeply worrying that so called experts don’t see the value of TAs. Do they not spend any time in schools?confused

SansaSnark Tue 27-Aug-19 21:47:52

If starting salaries go up to £30k, then realistically M2-M4 have to go up too, and then really everything else has to go up, or you've got a massively compressed pay scale. That's a lot of money on teacher salaries- TBH I'll believe it when I see it!

Also surely an incentive of £24,000 is going to do nothing to encourage anyone to take over a failing school? I assume they've missed a 0 off that.

I think the behaviour stuff is alright, although vague- but after spending years undermining teachers (and experts), is it any surprise that society and as a result students have lost respect for teachers. I'm intrigued to know how, exactly, the government is going to support teachers in confiscating mobile phones. Will Gavin Williamson come into classrooms and make teenagers hand them over?

Inspections for "outstanding" schools who got that label 10+ years ago is almost definitely a good thing.

The stuff about free schools and academies is meh- not sure how this will work in terms of providing extra school places where they are needed.

And the stuff about TAs is worrying. Maybe it's badly worded and they're worried about TAs covering classes instead of qualified teachers during e.g. primary school PPA? TAs are as rare as gold dust in most secondary schools as far as I'm aware. Reducing their numbers really means that only students with ECHPs would get any TA input at all.

With the extra money for SEND, the stuff about TAs and the push to have "alternative provision" free schools, I wonder if the long term plan is to push against the idea of inclusion?

Areallthenamestaken Tue 27-Aug-19 21:51:04

One of my students gave me a black eye last term. I assume 'reasonable force' would only apply to children like them?

fattt Tue 27-Aug-19 21:52:40

I personally find TA presence obtrusive and unhelpful tbh.

That’s not intended as a slight on individuals of course.

Piggywaspushed Tue 27-Aug-19 21:58:13

With the extra money for SEND, the stuff about TAs and the push to have "alternative provision" free schools, I wonder if the long term plan is to push against the idea of inclusion?

I think you're right there.

BelindasGleeTeam Tue 27-Aug-19 22:01:19


If they don't increase all the salaries I'll go back to M1 and do nooooo extra work.

Bingo 🤣

Fifthtimelucky Tue 27-Aug-19 23:33:03

I think the issue with TAs is more to do with a concern that often TAs are not deployed effectively (there was research on this a number of years ago).

noblegiraffe Wed 28-Aug-19 09:11:45

I heard Mary Boustead from the NEU just talking about this on the radio. She was saying that the promised money is less than has been cut since the Tories came in so will be inadequate and has also pointed out that the DfE will decide how it is distributed and so it could well be that shaky Tory seats get a nice cash boost while other areas of the country get nothing.

We’re gearing up for a General Election, folks.

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Piggywaspushed Wed 28-Aug-19 17:17:49

My area is one of the very underfunded ones . Massive Tory majorities , mind. Apart from the town of the famous free school, which is a bellweather marginal, so we'll see what happens there.

SansaSnark Wed 28-Aug-19 17:39:25

I think there's recent research on how to effectively deploy TAs which show they can make a real difference.

I recently taught a deaf child (with cochlear implant) who had his TA hours reduced. He was mid ability and with the TA coped really well- but in the lessons where he lost his TA he did have more issues. I could help to an extent by checking in regularly and printing off notes and the girl he sat with was lovely and helpful and would help him with any instructions he missed. Even so, he said he found the lessons without a TA harder and his classwork did suffer at times.

In a different school I know a girl entitled to a TA on her ECHP who doesn't get one because she "rejected" it. I know there comes a point when children should be allowed to make these decisions, but I don't think it's at the start of Year 7. She copes and is very good at looking busy but I do think TA support would benefit her massively.

That's the point some schools have got to with lack of TAs, to say there are "too many" is ridiculous to me!

Piggywaspushed Wed 28-Aug-19 18:09:32

Laura McInerney on Twitter:

*This salary rise for new teachers is going to be done by squeezing out teaching assistants and more experienced teachers isn’t it?

We are back to 2010 all over again.*

noblegiraffe Wed 28-Aug-19 18:14:26

Well if an NQT suddenly costs as much as an M5 teacher, they won’t be squeezing out experienced teachers, they’ll be squeezing out qualified ones.

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admission Wed 28-Aug-19 23:07:34

I really do hope that the information that has come out is wrong. Schools need more money to be able to function properly, which I think nearly everybody now accepts.
If schools get a £3.5B increase in funding then that is really good news but it is not good news if it is accompanied by the massive potential increase in teacher's salaries. This will simply leaves us in status quo of struggling to make ends meet, not allowing schools to do some of the many things they would like to do with extra funding.

summermadsession Thu 29-Aug-19 00:02:50

What is reasonable force though? I recall seeing a HT drag an 8 year old by the scruff of his neck to his office and proceed to scream at him in a very violent manner - was that reasonable? It didn't feel like it at the time.

noblegiraffe Thu 29-Aug-19 00:14:59

No, that is unlikely to meet the definition of reasonable.

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