Is the KS2 spag test included in calculation for GCSE target

[spellingandgrammar]

Is the KS2 spelling and grammar SATS test included in the calculation used by Oftsed to measure progress at secondary school against GCSE targets? Thank you.

[GoTitansGo]

Ofsted won't use calculations. They inspect, that's all. Secondary schools will probably use cat4, midyis or fft. Not KS2 spag, no.

[spellingandgrammar]

Sorry if I have not explained properly. All schools are measured on progress between SATS and GCSEs by Ofsted and results published. They don't have any choice in the calculations that are used as the calculation is set for all schools. Please can you someone confirm how the calculations are made. Is it an average of reading and maths papers ie 50% of total is the reading score and 50% the maths papers or is SPAG included too? Thanks,

[TeenTimesTwo]

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/772801/Secondary_accountability_measures_guidance.pdf Page 27.

Says reading and maths. Doesn't mention SPaG.

[noblegiraffe]

It’s just reading and maths equally weighted at the moment. The government haven’t actually announced how Progress 8 will be calculated using the new KS2 scaled scores yet because those kids are only in Y9.

I can’t imagine that they’d start using SPaG.

[spellingandgrammar]

Is that because progress between ks1 and ks2 is only measured on reading and maths? I was shocked to find recently that DD has a target score for KS2 maths and reading to 2 decimal places eg 116.78 but no target for SPAG. I was expecting a target to pass or exceed for all 3 exams not a precise number for just maths/reading
.

[TeenTimesTwo]

Anyone giving a target of 116.78 for a KS2 test needs to be reprogrammed. That's utterly and total daft imo.

Surely for y6 the kids just need to be told 'do your best to show how much you have learned'. If school has any more detailed internal targets shouldn't they be keeping them to themselves?

[spellingandgrammar]

I don't know if the kids have been told. Presumably some targets will be below 100 so surely they wouldn't tell the kids that and all will be trying to pass but I actually have no idea. I have only just discovered these targets exist when I was told my DDs targets. I would presume all parents will have been told as they were typed on the mock sats results paperwork!! Of course I presumed there were targets but thought they would be generic ie exceed or pass not to 2 decimal places. Do all schools have them but don't share with parents???

[spanieleyes]

It is because the grammar paper is not a compulsory one at KS1 so some/many schools don't use it. Therefore there is no progress measure between KS1 and Ks2 for SPAG.

( and yes, we do get set target scores down to 2 decimal places for reading and maths. This is how the schoolKS1/2 progress measures are calculated. In theory, only average progress scores for the cohort are calculated but-to do so, we need to know individual progress scores. )

[TeenTimesTwo]

spaniel But presumably these 2dp targets aren't told to parents?

And how can someone get a score of 116.78 anyway? I thought the scores were integers? So for any individual wouldn't you just have to round it up?

Also, why should the end KS2->GCSE progress measure be impacted by whether grammar is measured at age 7?

[spellingandgrammar]

Spaniel - Thanks that is what I thought. Do you tell the parents these target scores and if so do you round them to nearest whole number or specify to 2 decimal places?

[spanieleyes]

We would mention the target in general terms , ie we are aiming for a high secure or greater depth but telling a child or parent that someone needs to achieve 115 is pointless as the number of correct answers needed to achieve that will change every year! This means we have no idea HOW to get a specific score, We can say that, based on last year's papers you would have reached your target but, until we are given the scaled scores for this year, we don't know whether that would be enough this year!

Although a child can only score an integer, the progress is still measured to 2 dp. It's even worse for writing as children will still be given a target to 2dp but can only actually be awarded one of three marks, 91 for working towards, 103 for expected and 113 for greater depth

[spellingandgrammar]

Thanks. The more I hear about it the crazier it all sounds!

[spanieleyes]

It's ridiculous. A child might have a target of 104.82 for writing but has to achieve 113 to show any progress!

[Hellohah]

Sorry to hijack, when they use the FFT for target GCSE grades, do they use SPAG in that, or just the Reading score from SAT'S?
Or do they include CATS as well?

[noblegiraffe]

According to their website they use all KS2 results including teacher assessments.

[spellingandgrammar]

Sorry please can you explain the last 2 posts. Who uses FFT and are these different GCSE targets to the ones measured by ofsted for progress?

[TeenTimesTwo]

FFT (Fuller Family Trust?) uses socio-economic measures as well as prior results. I think.

[TeenTimesTwo]

Broadly speaking though, none of it should matter.
A decent school will see what it has in-front of it and teach accordingly. No one should be limited by targets.

[noblegiraffe]

Fischer Family Trust are a company who schools pay to generate GCSE target grades from their student data. These are usually referred to as FFT target grades and should not be shared with students but are used by schools for tracking, intervention and so on. They predict how a student is statistically likely to perform in future exams.

Ofsted do not use target grades. Ofsted do not have any predictions about how pupils should perform in upcoming exams.

Progress 8 is a measure that looks at how pupils performed on exams that have been sat, and how that performance compared to other pupils with a similar KS2 profile for reading and maths. It measures how pupils actually did.

[TeenTimesTwo]

Am I correct that FFT uses socio-economic stuff too?

[noblegiraffe]

I think so, they certainly used to.

[ourkidmolly]

Yes they use FSM and EAL. They don't use ethnicity.

[Fallulah]

FFT also includes flags for things like attendance, frequent changes of schools etc. They give the school an indication of the grade a child should be able to get, plus the likelihood of them getting it. Schools can decide how they want to use this.
At our school we do give our students a target grade and they know some of it is based on what they did at KS2 but not the ins and outs of FFT.

[bsc]

It isn't Ofsted that measures/assesses progress, it is the DfE, Ofsted just get the outcomes of DfE's measure.
But why are you worried about GCSE targets when your child has not yet sat KS2?

The whole regime may have changed by the time your child is 15/16.

[spellingandgrammar]

bsc - I am not worried about GCSE targets for my year 6 DD whom I am confident will do well whatever target!!!

However I was having a conversation with a teacher friend who was concerned about her DS's SPAG being so much worse than other subjects. I mentioned that it wouldn't affect targets and then thought I had better check that the situation had not changed and that I had not misinformed her.

Conversation was prompted by school giving us targets to 2 decimal places when I was unaware that numerical targets even existed for KS2 and was very surprised that they had been shared with parents.

However one of my other DC in yr 10 does actually have totally unrealistic targets for GCSE (all 8s) so it is something parents should be aware of if a child scored top marks on reading/maths in SATS yet cant write as the pressure they can be put under can affect mental health and of course their targets are fixed (whether measured by DfE or ofsted or whoever). School advise the DC of these targets in year 7 so even if the regime changes by the time they are 15/16 such children will still have a few years of pressure.