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% State / Private of total that get into PH, Latymer, LEH, NHE, SPGS etc(20 Posts)
Does anyone know what percentage of the total number of children accepted and starting come from private and what % from state for entrance at 11+ and 7+ (if there is a lower school), from Putney High, LEH, Latymer Upper/Lower, SPGS (11+ only), Bute (7+ only) and Notting Hill and Ealing? Trying to figure out general chances of getting in at 7+ and 11+ if we try from a state school in West London. As I have heard from some it is almost impossible from state, from some other totally doable!
Putney high is about 50% state entry at 11+.
"I have heard from some it is almost impossible from state, from some other totally doable!"
LEH Juniors has 7+ Entry and pretty much all or all the kids are offered places at Senior ... our daughter joined LEH Junior from a state primary at 7+ without any help, did the relaxed informal tests. A few years later a couple of other girls from her state primary joined her after 11+ time.
Don't get me wrong, all 3 of the girls were near the top of their classes at the state. Also we have friends whose kid went from state into one of the top independents after GCSEs so even at that stage it can be done.
Anyway to summarise my view ... it's bollocks that you can't move if they are clever enough and get support they might need.
I would say by 11+ you probably do need tutoring, but that's a whole different subject, you'd need that for Tiffin or Henrietta Barnet too.
It can become an emotive subject but the key point is simply recognising that a state primary education is neither geared nor funded to prepare kids for entrance exams for selective schools whether state or private (...and imo nor should it be, but again another separate discussion!).
Hope that helps ... my 2 cents
Farfallarocks. Where did you get that number about PHS? Since they have their own junior school and a majority move from the junior to the senior school, I find that number surprising. When my DD was there, about 40% came from the junior school alone. That would mean nearly all the new places would go to State school pupils. That most certainly was not our experience.
Both mine did state primary and had multiple offers at 11+ for the schools above and the boys' equivalents. We did take them to a tutor for a few months before the exams though (as did pretty much everyone else, whatever they say!)
Presumably the PHS figures about entry mean the new joiners, not girls from the junior school jeanne16. It’s a through school so not really considered a new entrant if you come from the JS.
Latymer Upper has a healthy state intake. Not sure of the percentages but a good mix of state and private.
LU is about 50% of the 130 ish intake, with another 40 coming up from the prep. I think Hampton is similar.
KCS will naturally take a lot more from the state sector (and also the 11 plus preps) now that their main intake point is at 11 plus, rather than 13 plus. 7 plus and 13 plus traditionally didn’t attract many state school applicants because it’s not and obvious time to move. In the same way, my DC were at an 11 plus prep - it doesn’t occur to anyone to move at 7 plus and what are you supposed to do for the two years between the end of year 6 and the 13 plus exams? CE is a different system anyway, as I understand it, and there are “screening tests” for individual schools in year 6 which are similar to 11 plus but tailored to the CE.
So, in short, yes, it’s very possible, but they would need some familiarisation and practise with the exam formats of the schools you are applying to.
In 11 plus preps, few bother with the selective grammars eg. Tiffin or the ones Wimbledon way because of the heavy emphasis on VR / NVR which seems to be a whole other ball game. You hear stories of people signing up for specialist Tiffin Tutors years before the exam and it sounds like a specific type of preparation. Maybe less so now though, since they introduced a maths and English paper as a second round, as this is more in line with what the preps focus on.
My understanding Latymer Upper is about 50/50 state private at 11-plus and a very decent proportion of kids are on large, if not full-fee, bursaries. But that is from friends telling me, you'd have to check the exact figures. I know many are attracted to the school for that reason but one friend told me she wouldn't send her son there as 'he'd be bullied by kids from state schools'
More generally, my own children got in to a well-known school at 7+, from a very average state primary, with no tutoring, just preparation with me. Across London I know many, many people with dc at very prestigious senior schools, who attended state primaries. It is 100% doable.
I don't know much, but can tell you that in my daughters year at LEH - recent-ish joiner at 11 - there were only about 10 from state primaries. LEH is one of those schools guaranteeing that its junior school go into senior school with no exam needed.
Just reading the posts it looks like the 7+ route slightly easier from state. Any stats for Bute and SPGS supposedly the most academically demanding of all?
My kids are in similar North London schools and state school kids are in a minority but there are a fair few. Maybe a third of new entrants but both schools had attached junior branches so that skewed the numbers further. I think schools that begin at 11 with no junior are probably better to get a balance.
What I've also seen is that of the state primary pupils, mine are an anomaly in not going to one of those 'special' primaries that everyone fights over - outstanding ofsted from over a decade ago; people renting next door; faith school; below average numbers of FSM. You know the types, the ones that are discussed on MN. Mine went to a bog standard, Good/RI school where non-FSM kids were in a minority.
I don't think it's that those sort of primaries are offering a better education, just that the sort of families who do the state then private route are the sort of parents who'll only consider the poshest of state primaries. My friend was telling me that 20 of the 30 in her child's class tried for LU. In my children's school less than 10 out of 60 will even try for privates.
Sorry have rather derailed. 7+ is less high stakes, isn't it, because they can just carry on until 11 if they don't get it. But then you're paying fees and probably commuting for an extra four years. The 11+ isn't great but it's not that bad.
I know children who got into all those schools from state primary at 11, and the equivalent boys' schools.
I would ring up SPGS and bute and ask for stats, but I certainly know girls from state primaries who got into both
As has been said above, my feeling is that 7+ is an easier way in if your kid is naturally bright. My child got into one of the 7+ mentioned above from an average state without tutor, I’m assuming because they are mature for their age, bright and inquisitive. At 6-7 it’s probably a lot harder to prep them for the exam and interviews as they’ll do what they feel like and I think it’s easier for the teachers to see the natural ability of the child. I think by 11+ there is so much tutoring going on for so long in many cases that it must be pretty hard for the schools to see through the tutoring to the natural ability. Which I figure puts the naturally able at a disadvantage compared to 7+. We also have a state school yr 5 DC who has 11+ to look forward to next year ... naturally very bright but I fear may get lost among all the overly tutored kids. She is doing group tutoring to hopefully ensure she is not at a disadvantage but it is frustrating as I would prefer not to spend money and time on tutoring when she has a million extra curricular activities she would prefer to do. At 7+ you can give it a go with no pressure (we just did some practice papers at home) because they can try again at 11+ (although then you have more years of fees so depends on your financial position!). LU definitely takes 50% state school kids and I think a lot of the other schools do too so clearly a lot of kids do get in from state schools - the numbers just look more scary!
Afaik Tiffin don't do VR and NVR any more - English and Maths only for the past few years. (I am a current Tiffin parent.)
I'd agree that state school children are well represented in most if not all of these schools. I'd also agree that most have come for the more sought after state primaries, but as sea is previously, that's probably because they attract the kind of parents who are interested in independent schools for later. The majority of those state school children will have had tutors, but those from a less soug after primary school could equally have a good tutor. Often the Prep school children are also going to Tutors. And if you look on the 11+ forum, there's a lot of comments suggesting the reason lots of Prep school kids get their place is because of the work the tutors do with them, not the Prep school itself. It's very hard to tell how good the Prep school is if most kids are also going to Tutors as well - perhaps the title for another thread - how many parents with kids in Prep schools now or in the past used Tutors as well for 11+ Prep?
More and more Seniors are keen to have an attached Junior/Prep - it's a way of shoring up against financial downturns and guaranteeing bums on seats and a steady flow of income. The trend does mean it's likely the exact proportion of state children will drop a little. What is also always noticeable in schools with a Junior, especially those who don't have to take the entrance exam at 11, is that any 'tail' in the school (in terms of ability) is usually fairly significantly made up of children from that Junior/Prep - the fact is that some are allowed in, who wouldn't have made it in as external candidates. I guess that's a key reason some parents go for 7+ or into the Junior at 4+ especially if it's not selective then. They could go for State but partly pay for greater certainty of a place. This will be less of an issue when the schools a highly selective at 4 or 7, but even so, some will scrape into the Senior who might not have otherwise. It's often the case that those from State schools do really well in the Senior school - they might not get into the A teams for sport if they haven't had much sport at primary or club coaching, and they might not be so advanced at languages to begin with, but I've often been told by language teachers that the thing that leads to a strong linguist is being bright, not 4 years of often poorly taught languages in a Prep school (and whilst some Preps do fantastic, advanced language teaching, a lot don't take it very far at all).
So, I'd agree that a bright state school child, with interested parents who have always encouraged their reading etc and who either home prepare or get a decent tutor have a very good chance of a place. Those paying for Preps don't always like to hear that and sometimes imagine the numbers are far more in their favour than they actually are.
You're so right ChocolateWombat about the 'tail of ability' - there are definitely some pupils from the junior schools who possibly wouldn't have got in via the 11+. I think that's even true of those that are 'highly selective' schools because I believe that testing children at 2 or 3 years old just cannot be as accurate as testing them later. Testing at a young age must surely be more of a measure of maturity than anything else.
I also agree that which primary you go to doesn't make that much difference, but it's worth getting a good tutor. We definitely had a sought-after one of them! Even so, it's not a panacea. You still have to put in quite a lot of work as parents. And at least half the kids our tutor sees are from private schools and she says there's not a lot of difference in the standards. And then there's my friend who's kid in the junior branch of a good all-through school who's thinking of using the tutor anyway because she's worried about her son not being same standard as those who come in at 11. It's madness...
Sorry that should read 'whose kid' not who's obv...
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