My feed
Premium

Please
or
to access all these features

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Secondary education

11+ or 13+ private secondary transfer for a boy in London - can't decide!

34 replies

MGMidget · 15/10/2018 11:40

My son is in a private prep school where he can stay until 13. The school also supports departure at 11 although this has historically been mostly for the girls as there are fewer private secondary places for them at 13. We are in London and looking for a day pupil place for private secondary school not boarding. I can't decide whether it is best to focus on 11+ or 13+ and I am hoping that some mumsnetters can offer me their words of wisdom! The school head recommended waiting until 13 so DS have more time to mature (he is not the most mature of boys!). I would be happy to keep him in his current school until 13 but I am worried that it may be harder to find a good school place at 13 within an easy travelling distance. I also know our school head has previously stated he has an objective to increase the number of pupils staying until 13 so I am not sure he is giving us the best advice. Does anyone know if it is harder to get into the London day schools at 13 than at 11? And also do the boys really benefit from waiting until 13 to transfer to secondary school or are they then under greater pressure to settle in quickly in the secondary school than if they transfer at 11? I would appreciate hearing what people's experiences have been. We are in South London so our target schools are West/South West/South and central London or a short train ride South/West of London. Our son is reasonably academic but not top tier so we haven't applied to St Paul's/Westminster and think KCS may be a stretch but Dulwich schools, Trinity/Whitgift, City of London, Emmanuel, Ibstock and Hampton are on our radar. And yes, I know some of this list are more academic than others and some have more places at 13 than others! I would be grateful to hear views.

OP posts:
Report
malmontar · 15/10/2018 12:18

I don’t have any experience in this but I imagine they are telling you this so they have boys stay. Why don’t you do the 11+ for the couple of schools you really want and if he gets in great if not, stay. You’ve got the best of both worlds in that situation.
They’ll be tons of boys starting at 11 so they’ll also be 11 and immature, I don’t really see that as any argument tbh.

Report
AveEldon · 15/10/2018 12:50

If you want day schools then I would aim at 11+ as it's the main entrance point

Report
montenuit · 15/10/2018 13:04

It depends on the school you want.
If their main intake is at 11+ (eg Hampton) I wouldn't wait for 13+.

There's been a shift towards moving at 11 in recent years. Eg the Mall in Twickenham has stopped it's years 7 & 8 with everyone going at the end of yr6.

The prep schools I know of with most boys staying to 13 are those aiming for boarding and top public schools where the main/only intake is at 13.

And of course the head of prep isn't going to recommend leaving 2 years early and losing 2 years of fees. Some preps have an agreement with the local independents to not take their boys at 11 but at 13 - to maintain favourable links, so you might need to do a bit of research.

Report
montenuit · 15/10/2018 13:05

its, not it's. Blush

Report
Growingboys · 15/10/2018 13:47

You definitely want to be doing the 11+ if you're aiming at London day schools.

Report
TJsAunt · 15/10/2018 13:55

Most of your target schools have a bigger intake at 11 than at 13. Personally I'd go with that - starting a school in year 9 when a gang of them have already been together for 2 years would be harder?

And of course your prep school will recommend staying until 13 - they want your £££!

Report
little0miss0mac · 15/10/2018 22:05

Our DS has just joined a SW London prep into Yr 6 from state primary. He's staying until 13+ and will be heading to an SW London indie at that point.

I am certain the school isn't ripping us off - it's about him having a chance to settle and get up to speed, and start flexing the academic muscles that just weren't stretched previously. I also agree about the maturity point. I guess it might have been different had he been at the prep since the start, but this is our route and I'm pretty sure it will work out.

I'm not particularly worried about fewer spaces at 13+ - there are fewer applicants too, though I don't know the comparable ratios). Maybe finding out the ratios of applicants to places might help you work out your route (either to reassure, or press on with 11+!). What's your school's record in placing boys into London indies at 13+?

Report
montenuit · 16/10/2018 08:55

little0miss0mac why didn't you just go down the independent senior school route at 11+ (or even 10+ eg Emmanuel?)

Report
Seeline · 16/10/2018 08:59

My Ds started at one of those schools mentioned in the OP from state primary at Y6. It was the best thing we ever did, as the transfer was gentler than it would have been at Y7. He was really settled by the time the majority started at Y7. there were few places left for boys at 13+. I would definitely go for 11+, if not 10+.

Report
natscihelp · 16/10/2018 09:43

Our experience boiled down to looking at the schools we wanted to apply to and when they had a greater intake - 11 or 13. Although the ratios were better at 13 the vast majority intake was at 11. We thought it better for DS in terms of settling,making friends, sports teams etc. We are glad we did this - plus it was horrendous to see DSs old friends going through the 13 plus exams. With 11 you have time to settle in whereas with 13 you pretty much hit the ground running. I do get the emotional maturity but and it is true boys maturity wise are very different at 13 than at 11 but we still believe this was the best decision for us. We are in a different part of London to you so different schools.

Report
TJsAunt · 16/10/2018 13:55

it's not that the prep schools are ripping anyone off - it's that their advice will always be about allowing boys to mature at prep school before sitting a 13+ exam.

am always intrigued by this argument. My ds moved to one of these schools at 11+. he was surrounded by similarly immature boys who have now had the benefit of 2 years together before the much smaller 13+ cohort joined them. the benefit to them of knowing the school and the system is massive.

also agree with the 10+ comments - often a smoother and easier time to move for lots of reasons. wish we'd done that.

Report
Growingboys · 16/10/2018 14:06

10+ is a great way to do it. Competition is fierce but they get in at the start rather than arriving late.

Report
AveEldon · 17/10/2018 07:17

Another thing to consider is the facilities at your prep vs those at the secondary - are more sports / more co curricular clubs / languages available at the secondary? If so why wait 2 years?

Report
ChocolateWombat · 17/10/2018 15:39

I would ask the secondaries for very specific data about how many applicants per place there are at both 11+ and 13+.

As has been said, the market is changing. In the past, there were more 13+ places at many of the schools which took in at both 11+ and 13+ and it was true that fewer applied per place at 13 than 11 because only those Preps which went to 13 could send boys (or sometimes girls) at that point. However, if you look you'll see more schools are dropping the 13+ or are reducing the nos they take at 13 and increasing the numbers taken at 11. They want an extra 2 years of fees and certainty of bums on seats. There are a relatively small number which only take at 13+, often boarding schools.

The other thing to be aware of is that for most 13+ entry now, you still sit exams in Yr6 - so a pre-test, which is often the same as 11+. Having to do is removes the chance to 'mature' for slightly lazy or less focused 10 year old boys before the exam. Yes they will be able to stay in their Prep for another 2 years but won't delay the exam sitting phase.

Intake at 13+ as a general trend is dwindling. Ask all your schools how many 13+ entrants they have had in each of the last 3 years and ask if they have both pre-test and Yr8 test and how many are doing each.

There is a definite move towards moving to day seniors at 11+. In my experience at a 13+ Prep those who wait to be tested at Yr8 level are finding there are few schools offering this and most want the 11+ pre test in Yr6 and also that they spend Yr7 and 8 feeling a bit worried about where they will go when they know most people have already gone, and in that 2 year period, each year it becomes clearer that the Seniors are taking less and less in at 13+ and boosting 11+ intake. This might not be the case everywhere, but sounds fairly widespread in London and Home Counties.

In the end, asking lots of very specific questions to the Seniors you are interested in, is key to being able to make an informed decision. I wouldn't rely only on info from the Prep, who cannot give data from the secondaries themselves or speak about the direction of travel they are moving in and where they see 13+ being in another 2 or 3 years.

Report
trinity0097 · 17/10/2018 20:00

I went around Hampton (as a teacher) the other day at an event. The Yr 7s who showed me around said that they were not set by ability, even in subjects that there was a huge discrepancy in what the children had covered before, e.g. Latin. They had both come from state schools with no Latin, but kids from independent schools joining at 11+ would be far more advanced, at our school they start in Yr 4. If your child is capable how would they be stretched not just biding their time until the others caught up.

In many schools the ratios of those applying at 13 are better than at 11, as at 11 you are also up against state school pupils. We’ve never had a problem getting children in to a school at 13+, yes many may not get offers from all schools as it is so competitive in that area, but everyone leaves at 13 to an independent school they are happy with.

Report
MGMidget · 19/10/2018 11:09

Thank you everyone for giving putting so much time into giving me your thoughts. It looks like there is no easy answer because there are pros and cons to leaving at 11 or 13! I current plan is to try for some of the schools that are a bit ambitious and where the chances of getting in are better at 11 than 13. We know there's the fall back of doing entry exams early in year 8 for some of the schools offering a 13+ intake so we do have 'the best of both worlds' in some respects. I was just having a wobble as to whether we should bite the bullet and try for all schools at 11. Some schools don't mind if you try again at 13 if unsuccessful at 11 but of course its hard to know whether they will be influenced by a previous 11+ failure! Does anyone have any experience of trying for both entry points and being successful at 13 but not at 11?

OP posts:
Report
OVienna · 20/10/2018 10:31

The one from your list I'd be careful about is City. There is as chocolate noted a pre-test at 11 for the 13+ route. You can either go down one path or the other with them. You can't sit the 13 plus if the 11 plus doesn't work out. You can sit their ten plus and then the eleven though.

We are east so not immediately relevant for you. The three main independents in our area used to all do 13 plus. Now only one is really properly offering places then. My daughter's school didn't take anyone, another took one only. The last took about ten. My point is the declining opps at 13 plus are a trend in London I'd be mindful of.

Report
jeanne16 · 20/10/2018 12:59

I moved my DS from a London prep on the 11+ to one of the schools in your list. I am so relieved I did. The boys who remained at his prep all had to do the 11+ pretest anyway just to enable them to sit the 13+, so 2 exams. Those that had 13+ offers then had to do the gruelling Common Entrance which is around gcse level work. Why put them through that in y8? The ones that didn’t pass the 11+ pretest spent a horrible 2 years with their sons knowing they had no school offers. They then had take whatever they could get.

My son did A levels last year and got the best results possible and is at a top uni. No one ever discloses their Common Entrance exam results!

Report
PeekaPeeka · 21/10/2018 07:31

My DS are at one of your schools mentioned in the OP.

Our 11+ tutor knows a few of the schools very well, and said that she would never recommend delaying until 13+: there are very few places, and the exams are much tougher than at 10/11+.

I believe that one of the Sutton grammars no longer holds places for 13+ entry, making competition for the indies at 13+ even tougher. I don't know whether the other 2 are planning the same.

DS both went at 10+ (from a state primary) and it was the best decision we ever made.

Report
MGMidget · 22/10/2018 10:41

Unfortunately we are too late to consider 10+! And with City of London we are going for the 13+ with pre-test. I did wonder though about how hard Common Entrance was going to be. It seems to be being 'played down' by DS's school but I note comments here suggesting it is going to be very stressful and a slog! If it makes 11+ look like a 'walk in the park' then that would be another reason for us to choose 11+ (assuming DS gets any offers!).

OP posts:
Report
user1499173618 · 22/10/2018 10:55

I echo other posters: there is a slow but steady migration towards private day schools adopting the same main intake points as state schools, at 11+. This is not going to change, though the transition won’t be completed for a while yet. Prep schools will continue to have Y7 and Y8 classes to serve the boarding school market, but some prep schools will stop this entirely. Boarding schools are increasingly out of favour and out of the financial reach of British parents.

Report
OVienna · 22/10/2018 16:38

@MGMidget

I have various friends whose sons have gone down the boarding school route. From what they have said, it seems to be quite rare for someone to fail the CE. However, this stretches a range of schools in terms of competition, from Stowe to Winchester etc. The Winchester kids worked quite hard but I also know a Winchester tutor personally who confirmed that they select very carefully at 11+ to avoid CE failures.

Less competitive boarding schools who, as user rightly notes, are accessing a declining pool of parents willing and able to pay their fees I would venture are unlikely to fail a child at CE.

City of London, on the other hand, could fill their seats many times over and I'd be more worried about that one. I think they would be more likely to fail someone but this is just speculation. Your DC would probably be fine but I'd try to get better information on that 13+. My friend's son was offered it but declined for a BS option.

Report

Don’t want to miss threads like this?

Weekly

Sign up to our weekly round up and get all the best threads sent straight to your inbox!

Log in to update your newsletter preferences.

You've subscribed!

OVienna · 22/10/2018 16:39

So to be clear, he never ended up taking the paper. I think some of his friends, however, and went. Locally you can probably get good info but if it would help to speak to a parent whose child went through it, let me know.

Report
user1499173618 · 23/10/2018 09:21

I have a family member with a son at City. She is going to move him as he is not terribly happy in the maths-focused Asian/Jewish competitive atmosphere (which would have suited my DCs just fine!) and would prefer more of an traditional English music and classics type ambiance.

Report
ChocolateWombat · 23/10/2018 11:26

Regarding Common Entrance....you will find that most schools don't actually use it to make offers anymore or even as the basis of receiving the place. Schools which take in at 13 need to have made all their offers and had acceptances long before CE tests are taken and marked. They offer based on their own internal tests or using the electronic reasoning tests which are set for this purpose for independent schools and often taken in Preps. As has been said, increasingly these tests are sat in Yr6 and are effectively the same as 11+ but lead to a deferred entry offer for 13. CE is then taken in some Prep schools becaue it is a historic thing, it gives a continued focus to Yrs 7 and 8 which can be needed, especially if secondary offers have already been received and as has been said, no-one fails it. Certainly children get different levels but it is extremely rare for a child who has had an offer before CE (and all will have offers before this) to then be turned away following CE. If you look at admissions pages of schools which take in at 13 you will see that offers are made lomg before this. Most say something like 'CE results are used for internal setting purposes' - in actual fact they are often ignored totally, but still sat as a historic thing and to give Prep schools something to say they are offering in those last 2 years. 13+ senior also always have provision in admissions for those not able to do CE because the school they are in prior to this doesn't do it - showing how non-essential it is. The curriculum of CE is very content heavy and has increasingly been under scrutiny in terms of if it is useful or appropriTe as preparation for GCSE and the content and particularly skills which are needed there. Many places see it as dated and not a good preparation for the next phase. Indeed, if you look at some Preps which go to 13, some are dropping it altogether and developing their own curriculums, often in conjunction with the Seniors they feed, and with their support.

Essentially, we are in a time of transition for independent senior school start points and Prep ending points, especially for day schools. The move is very much for most children to leave Prep at 11 and for Seniors to take in the bulk of their intake then. The direction of travel is for this to continue and grow, reducing those in Preps until 13. Thing shave changed a lot in the last 5 years and will have changed again in 2 or 3 years, so bear in mind the direction of travel and that if your DC is in Yr 4 or 5 and you are thinking about this, by the time they are in Yr8, things will have moved on and that 11+ trend will have moved on too.

Yes, there will still be a small number of schools which exclusively take in at 13+. Yes, there will still need to be Preps to feed them, but many Preps which send most children to day schools simply won't be able to sustain the Yr7 and 8 sections for much longer, as numbers dwindle due to parents feeling under pressure not to miss the boat when there are more places available at 11+ and where day schools certainly will have fewer places available for 13+ and certainly for 13+ without a pre-test at 11. If a Prep is largely feeding boarding schools, then it's Yr7 and 8 has a better future ahead than if it mostly feeds day schools, or if it feeds schools which are gradually shifting their intakes towards more 11+.....and loads are doing this.

Some Seniors would really like to wholly move to 11+ intake. However they maintain Small 13+ to maintain good relations with the Preps...that really is the only reason for it in many cases, when Seniors know they can more than fill up at 11+. Preps can se the direction of travel in all of this and every year some drop their Yr7 and 8 or at least start pushing their children to do 11+ early testing for. 13+ places because they can see that leaving the decisions later and only being tested in yr8 really does reduce the options for most children and this change has been moving frighteningly fast.

I said before, and I'll say again, ask very specific questions of all the seniors you are interested in about numbers of places available at each entry point, applications per place and what they would recommend. Rely on what the seniors say most, as well as listening to advice from Preps. Look carefully at the admissions pages from the senior schools rather than just relying on the Preps. Make sure you understand the local market and what is available when and I which quantities.

And finally, one thing I think that needs to change a bit, is the idea of totally relying on the Prep school to lead parents through the choice and decision making process. Prep parents rightfully think they have paid for expert advice and insider knowledge and expect tailored advice about suitable schools. That is all correct. However, some Prep parents also seem to think this means that they have no responsibility or ability to carry out their own research. In the end, Prep Heads advise parents, but parents make the decisions for their children, and need to do so in receipt of full information. Too many I think, leave decision making too late....they trundle along with the idea that the Prep is driving it all and will inform them and make them aware of everything, and then they find they are towards the end of Yr5 and haven't really made any decisions and so facing exams in Yr6 seems too soon, so they feel relieved they have the choice to wait until Yr8, and think they lucky to have this luxury of ignoring the growing 11+ furore they hear about from parents in other schools. And then later in Yr 6 as other parents receive offers and people start talking more about where they will be going either at the end of yr6 or at the end of yr 8 based on a ore-test already sat, they then start to feel a bit uncomfortable that maybe they should have focused a hit sooner on it all and bittern the bullet and sat those earlier exams. It's not nice to spend Yr7 and 8 feeling you might have missed the boat. It doesn't mean you have to leave at 11 but I think that these days you need to have sat exams in Yr6 and got offers then, which means that you need to focus on making choices before mid Yr5, especially if you think any extra preparation might be needed, to allow time to do it, or to get fully involved in any programme the Prep is offering, or to ask for something tailor made if they aren't offering enough. 13+ Preps can give parents a sense that time is infinite in the decision making process and also that they don't need to think about it because the school will do everything,mbut in the end, parents need to decide and to do so in a timely manner. Already on this thread some parents say they have missed the 10+ boat or whatever. It's fine to decide not to get in a particular boat, but being aware of Ll the options and implications seems really important.

Report
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.