Year 7 retalliation

[noname11]

Is it reasonable for teachers to expect 12 year old boys not to retaliate/defend themselves ie push back if another child pushes them first? Is it fair for the child who retaliated to be reported for his behaviour by retaliating too?

[Greensleeves]

Yes, it's normal for both children to be reprimanded if they are both involved in a physical altercation

but the staff should also be talking to the students concerned to find out why the incident happened, and it there is an ongoing bullying issue they absolutely should be following up on that and offering support to the student who needs it.

[GreenTulips]

Yes - but they need to be vocal about it

If you were assulted in the street you are allowed to use reasonable force - kids don't understand 'acceptable reasonable force' especially if they are angry

So you now have two injured kids.

They need to speak up about assault and if necessary involve the police - same Chanel's for adults

[Thehogfather]

I think it depends on whether it was done for self defence. If the second child genuinely thought they needed to retaliate to prevent it escalating, imo it's different to if they knowingly did it as a tit for tat

[Cauliflowersqueeze]

Yes reasonable to expect them not to retaliate. Means it is far more straightforward to discipline just the attacker.

[ASauvignonADay]

Yes it is reasonable and we would expect them not to retaliate, although I guess it depends on the specifics and severity.

As another poster said, it all b comes a bit complicated and less clear cut if they retaliate.

[Greensleeves]

Just to be clear, even if they are both disciplined for fighting (as they should be if both were involved in a physical altercation) that doesn't have to be the end of the matter if there is bullying occurring. School have a duty of care to enforce the bullying policy and protect students, and parents should push for them to do so if that isn't happening.

[noname11]

Are you all teachers by the way? 🤔😊

[Greensleeves]

I'm a primary supply teacher, but my answers are coming more from the perspective of a mum whose son has been through horrific mental and physical bullying at secondary school...it's left dh and I sadder and wiser parents!

[BarbarianMum]

Self defence is permissible in law and even in schools (although they will try and argue it isn't). You can challenge any sanction as long as it is self defence and proportionate.

[GreenTulips]

The school rules will be laid out in reguards hitting punching kicking.

From a young age thy get told to keep their hands to themselves.

If he hit someone even in self defence it's still against school rules

[noname11]

Thanks, but it would be nice to hear from parents who are not teachers too 😊

[GreenTulips]

Teachers have to follow the riules as well! They may feel differently as a parent - but they don't decide on punishment the school does

[DivisionBelle]

Retaliate and self defence are different.

You need to talk to your DS about the difference. Walking away from trouble is an important streetwise skill, and retaliation and counter retaliation get young people into s lot of trouble round where I live. Ultimately fatal trouble

And bullying is another matter again. You need to be clear about what is going on.

[ASauvignonADay]

Ditto retaliation and self defence are different.

Pushing someone away if they are hitting you, is different from becoming fully involved in a fight or returning the next day and hitting or whatever to get their own back.

It definitely isn't straightforward and we'd look at each case individually. And yes, pastoral staff (so decide in behaviour sanctions including exclusions) rather than parent perspective (which to be fair, is more likely to be an emotional opinion).

[GiraffesAreNotShort]

Ds1 had a child pin him to a wall by his throat within the first term at secondary. My son came from a primary school outside the area so knew no-one, is mild mannered and quiet. This happened in a corridor whilst lining up for a lesson and was completely unprovoked.

What the idiot bully didn't know is that my son does karate and was a high grade. He broke the choke hold and pushed the boy away, the boy tried to kick my son, and my son just kept pushing his leg down so it never made contact with his body. After the third kick my son caught his leg and held it. At that point a teacher came round the corner.

Because they were all year 7's the teacher handed the incident dealing over to the form tutor who saw them daily and also taught them for 1 subject.

Bully child was put in isolation, my son walked free. The choke hold breaking is followed by 1 of 2 actions, either you push them away, or you pull their head down and smash your knee into their face. My son showed he had defended himself, not had a fight. The witnessed attested to that.

I am not a teacher, just a parent. I do know that bully child was pissed off my son wasn't in detention and even asked him why. My son replied, I didn't start a fight.

[PrincessoftheSea]

I am parent, not a teacher.

I would expect my child to defend himself, but not retaliate as that would just escalate things. I would expect teachers to step in pretty quickly too.

[MaisyPops]

Pushing someone off you when they havr hold/have you cornered etc - fair enough and understandable

Hitting someone because they hit you first / shoving someone because they shoved you first - not ok and both students have been physical.

What bothered me a lot in one school I used to work in is how many parents had told their children if anyone starts on you, you smack them, if anyone calls you (gossip or bitching), smack em, you've got to be tough and stand up for yourself and when staff got involved it was i've told my lad if someone starts he better finish it or he's going find himself having issues with people thinking he's a pussy and an eady target. One of the most ones I had was 2 Year 7 girls to the effect of well she was calling my daughter. You can't expect her to take it (bitchy fall out, one child decidied to claw a clump of hair out another girl). Mum said it was fine because the other 12 year old girl was obviously a slag otherwise she wouldn't have been texting her daughter's 15 year old boyfriend!! Apparently that's what happens to slags and the victim of the hair clawing deserved it because she started something she couldn't finish

[noname11]

Thank you all for your responses..
Thank you Divisionbelle, some food for thought there...🤔
Nice one Giraffes...👌🏾

[physicskate]

Are you only asking for parents opinions because you think they will tell you what you want to hear!

If your child pushed back as retaliation and not in self defence, of course he should be reprimanded.

And I am a teacher and childless NOT by choice but by infertility, so I quite resent your opinion that only parents are allowed an opinion about this.

[BluebellTheDonkey]

This is why my boys go to self defence classes. They are told they can do a certain number of moves to defend themselves, however if they are able to escape a situation without needing to do so then that is preferable. It has helped my 13 yr old hugely, he's used it a couple of times but more importantly he carries himself with a certain confidence as he knows can defend himself if necessary.

[noname11]

Physicskate, you are allowed to resent whatever you want, just like I am allowed to seek the opinions of parents in a parents’ forum..

[Toomanytealights]

If hitting back meant he wasn't walloped again then of course it's ok.

We're talking about children. A frightened upset child may well throw a punch instead of a push in the heat of the moment.

Sometimes pushing isn't enough.

[MaisyPops]

I do think physics has a point OP.
It does feel a bit like 'i'll ask for parent perspectives because i'm going to stand a better chance of the answer i want. Then when people have come on and said that defence is fine but retaliation is wrong I'll suggest they must be teachers too because i've not got the replies i want. What has probably gone on is my DC has retaliated physically and i'm not happy with them being in trouble. What I'm really after is a thread where people will tell me it is perfectly reasonable for my child ti have been physical towards another child because technically it's not their fault so they shouldn't be sanctioned'.

[physicskate]

So you're discriminating against me because my uterus doesn't work?? No wonder your child is so delightful!!!

[Wolfiefan]

It's fine to do what they need to do to get away and report the incident.
It's not ok to thump somebody repeatedly because they kicked you once in the leg.