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Conservatives lie about grammar schools in their manifesto. What else are they lying about?

(51 Posts)
noblegiraffe Sun 21-May-17 15:13:22

Here's the quote from the Tory manifesto about bringing back grammar schools:

We will lift the ban on the establishment of selective schools, subject to conditions, such as allowing pupils to join at other ages as well as eleven. Contrary to what some people allege, social research shows that slightly more children from ordinary, working class families attend selective schools as a percentage of the school intake compared to non- selective schools. While the attainment gap between rich and poor pupils stands at 25 per cent across the country, at selective schools it falls to almost zero.

Let's break this down:
Yes, slightly more children from 'ordinary working class families' get into selective schools as a percentage of intake. 36% compared to 35%. However this is because they've excluded anyone who has claimed FSM in the last 6 years from their definition of 'ordinary working families', which is a shocking omission.
If you include families who have claimed FSM in the last 6 years, but aren't currently claiming, then we have 52% of children in non-selective schools being from 'ordinary working families', but only 42% in grammar schools.

Secondly, yes, the attainment gap between rich and poor is much lower at grammars than at non-selective schools, however, poor kids overwhelmingly don't get into grammars. There is a sleight of hand going on here. They've said that ordinary working families are well-represented in grammars (only if you twist the definition of ordinary working family) and then they've followed that up with a comment about poor children, leading an unsuspecting reader to think that lots of poor children benefit from grammars, where in the main, they don't.

Apart from that, allowing children to enter grammars at an age other than 11 seems to be an admission that the 11+ is a load of rubbish as a selection tool. That wouldn't happen anyway because it would be an adminstrative nightmare.

noblegiraffe Sun 21-May-17 15:34:00

I forgot to include the chart that shows the lie about ordinary working families. From their own research!

53% of kids in grammar schools are from affluent families, compared to 32% in non-selective schools. How dare the Tories try to frame them as the school of the ordinary working family?

pinkandorangeroses Sun 21-May-17 15:36:38

Works in N.I.

noblegiraffe Sun 21-May-17 15:52:27

There are lots of calls to abandon the grammar system in NI. Indeed the Catholic Church which runs some of the top grammars in NI have converted some of their schools to be non-selective.

Apart from that, England is not NI. Better to look to the 164 grammars in England if you want to argue for more of them, than those in a different country.

noblegiraffe Sun 21-May-17 20:22:00

Does no one care about grammar schools any more?

Or just fallen into a deep depression because we're going to get them whether we like it or not?

bringonyourwreckingball Sun 21-May-17 20:38:27

In my experience people seem to be very keen on grammar schools when they think their kids will get in. Generally because they went to a not great comprehensive and want better for their kids. Which is fine, except most kids still won't get into grammar (and poor kids disproportionately so) so grammar schools just make the attainment gap so much bigger and then what if your kid is one of the majority who don't get in? Nobody ever says grammar schools are fabulous when their kid is likely to end up at a secondary modern or whatever they call them these days (not in a grammar area).
Personally, I went to an ok not fabulous but pretty good comp. I got 5 As at A level and went to oxford.

noblegiraffe Sun 21-May-17 21:09:46

According to recent polling, grammars are only more popular than not with the over 55 age bracket. So the ones whose children won't be affected. hmm

BrexitSucks Sun 21-May-17 21:15:08

It's one of the top 2 things I would hold against Tory manifesto. That and, er, hard Brexit plan.

boys3 Sun 21-May-17 21:53:27

Does no one care about grammar schools any more?

I'm not sure anyone seems to care about Education in general sad

boys3 Sun 21-May-17 22:03:12

Here's a more depressing piece noble

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1348429/Grammars-will-be-gone-by-2011-says-Blunkett.html

Never quite understood what the issue was in getting enough signatures for a local ballot on whether to keep a local grammar(s). Surely the majority of parents would end up with their DCs not getting in, so keeping the status quo surely self-defeating?

That said eldest DS was only just starting nursery when the Act came into force so can't say I took a lot of notice along with not actually then living in a grammar area

nocampinghere Mon 22-May-17 09:32:51

i've always voted conservative
parents have always voted conservative
purely because of the complete fuck up i can see them making of the education system of which i have first hand experience of, i cannot bring myself to vote for them this time.
- yr6 SATS are a joke (DD2 just sat them)
- i have watched school funding fall through the floor since DD1 started school (she is now yr8)
- the grammar argument doesn't hold up imo
- pulling meals for infants is the last straw. the schools have now got the staff/equipment needed etc... which was a nightmare to implement and now they're going to stop. what a WASTE of money. the evidence is there that they are a good thing. bloody hell. at least jamie oliver won't stop shouting.

Frankley Mon 22-May-17 17:35:58

I will not be voting for Theresa May because of her support of Grammar schools. I am what you would call 'elderly' and I passed the 11plus and went to a Grammar School. It is an utterly unfair system. Can we not make enough fuss and get a U turn on this (same as she has apparently just done on Social Care)

HPFA Mon 22-May-17 18:01:07

*Does no one care about grammar schools any more?

Or just fallen into a deep depression because we're going to get them whether we like it or not?*

There are a lot of ways of fighting this - I'm giving a talk on this next Saturday in fact!

Today's complete shambles being laid at the feet of Nick Timothy is going to help quite a lot.

Draylon Mon 22-May-17 18:53:59

I went to a GS in 1973. Hooray for me.

My DB went to a SM in 1972. Complete shambles, which has repercussions right on into his adult life, by his own admission. Yet he supports GS. Go figure.

I cannot and will not support an educational system that makes such far reaching decisions about a DC's future based on one day, aged 10. Especially one that can so obviously be gamed by the sharp-elbowed.

DriftingDreamer Mon 22-May-17 19:06:45

I am in a depression about grammar schools.
I have a year 7 and a child in primary as well. Year 7 probably would have got into a grammar. Youngest would not.
I believe in investing in comprehensives- particularly those in disadvantaged areas.
Clearly I shall not be voting Conservative....

Rudi44 Mon 22-May-17 22:40:24

I am devastated by the way the conservatives are treating our education system (to speak nothing of the NHS, our transport and don't even get me started on fox hunting). In our school when a someone leaves, if it isn't a class teacher, they are not replaced, other local schools have sent letters home saying they have a funding shortfall of £33 per pupil per month. It's a mess. Teachers are overworked by all the SATs prep they have to do never pmind how stressed our kids are by it. The thought of the damage Teresa May will do over the next five years makes me feel sick

LineysRun Mon 22-May-17 22:51:25

That's quite a piece of spin that Noble has highlighted. I totally agree with the OP.

My DS may or may not get into university this year, after his years at an urban comp with too few teachers and low morale. Who knows.

If it weren't for posters like Noble who generously gave of their time on this site to offer advice and support over things like Further Maths, he wouldn't have managed to get through GCSEs to the necessary standard a couple if years ago.

Noble flowers

imablackstarnotapopstar Mon 22-May-17 22:53:19

They are lying about everything

user1489830224 Tue 23-May-17 00:29:52

Clever idea of the Tories to make parents pay twice. Pour (our) public money into free schools and new grammars (many of which are run by their buddies) and then reduce funding for current schools and push them so hard that they have to start asking parents for hundreds of pounds per year, as the case at my DD's school. Why should we pay for no loo roll, no textbooks and bigger classes?

ABitOTT Thu 25-May-17 02:05:44

One local school has had to cut 18 of their 30 teaching assistants because of the way schools are being funded! Makes me so angry to then see the Tories banging on about setting up more grammars when we need to be properly funding all current schools.angrysad

TestTubeTeen Sun 28-May-17 17:05:10

So have we even seen the results of the Green Paper consultaton, or is everything people said, and evidence supplied, just dismissed as something people 'allege'?

Have they published the results of the consultation, or is May planning to press ahead regardless?

I am 55 plus, have teens in secondary, and think the proposal to reintroduce Grammars is pointless, regressive and divisive. And not effective in providing the educated generations we need.

nicp123 Sun 28-May-17 19:54:46

The Conservatives are lying about many other things and unfortunately is nothing we can do. They will win the elections this time.

noblegiraffe Sun 28-May-17 20:26:48

No, they haven't published the results of the Green Paper consultation. They were going to publish them and a White Paper just before the GE was called and then oh dear purdah kicked in, sorry about that and now it's in the manifesto and there's nothing anyone can do about it. No idea if the consultation responses will ever be published now, but the best that Justine Greening could say about them was that they weren't overwhelmingly negative. hmm

admission Sun 28-May-17 21:23:04

The most important sentence, as far as I am concerned, in the conservative manifesto is the statement that when the new funding formula is introduced no school will loose out on funding when compared to the current funding formula.
At least no school should be worse off by up to 3%. I accept that this does not remove the challenge that all schools will face in not having any increased funding when costs are rising. However this is where the schools that have paid careful attention to their finances and managed them well will pay dividends against those that have not and already running deficit budgets. There might be a suggestion of further funding from all three parties but I will hold off from being positive about that until I see details in writing and how it will be distributed.

noblegiraffe Sun 28-May-17 21:59:38

The schoolcuts.org.uk website has been updated to show how each school will fare under the different party manifestos.

There's a school near me still set to lose 14 teachers if the Tories get in, and that's taking into account their manifesto pledge.

And the Tories were hoping to raise funds for schools by scrapping free lunches and replacing with breakfasts, but the figures on that have been shown to be so dodgy that it may raise hardly any extra cash. So presumably that's less money for schools than they are promising.

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