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First entry rules changed to force new GCSEs

(38 Posts)
noblegiraffe Wed 28-Oct-15 13:13:52

I've just seen that any schools that try to get around their kids being guinea pigs for the the new GCSE by entering early for the old GCSE will be penalised as these results will no longer count as first entry for the league tables.

So any students in Y10 who might have been entered for Maths or English in June of Y10, or November of Y11 will not have those results entered into the league tables at the end of Y11, they will have to sit the new GCSE. Any school that only enters all their kids early for the old GCSE would get 0% headline measure.

I guess this would also have implications for the next phase of GCSEs for schools who do a three year KS4 and enter for some GCSEs in Y10. I expect they won't count either.

Ladymuck Wed 28-Oct-15 13:23:40

Presumably you could still do a different qualification in year 11 which would count though, eg so Additional maths and the other English qualification? That would fill the Progress8/Attain8 bucket?

WildStallions Wed 28-Oct-15 13:31:50

DS in Y10 will be sitting the current maths GCSE this year and the new one next year.

Normally they sit GCSE in Y10 and further maths in Y11 so he is missing out on doing further maths.

All other years will be doing it like that - GCSEs in Y10 and further maths in Y11.

I don't really see your problem.

ragged Wed 28-Oct-15 13:45:00

What NG is saying I already thought was true, & I thought it read it on MN many times!

Hmmm, maybe I was prognosticating smile.

noblegiraffe Wed 28-Oct-15 14:36:49

I don't think you read it on MN many times, because the info about the new GCSEs are coming out in dribs and drabs. The old rules were that the first entry would count in the league tables (to discourage early entry). The new rules are that the first entry won't count (to discourage early entry).

The thing with further maths in Y11 is that it's harder so grades are often lower than the GCSE grade. My A*-A students at GCSE last year got A**-C on further maths. With progress 8, schools won't risk top students getting lower grades on a harder qualification and having that count in the double-weighted maths basket.

ScentedJasmine Wed 28-Oct-15 15:43:38

A school my children likely to attend does early entry and it does give falsely low bottom line. However, even ofsted says that they are using early entry wisely. 'Best' result not part of bottom line.
Unfortunately, parents often just look at league table bottom line and not 'best' results and schools around here that don't do early entry known to play dirty with their advertising....

RafaIsTheKingOfClay Wed 28-Oct-15 23:46:15

Interesting. I'd imagine that's going to be an issue if you happen to be a school that has a 2 yr ks3 followed by a 2yr ks4 then a 3 year 6th form.

Presumably they will just have to explain away the 0% 5A*-C for the current yr10s.

balletgirlmum Wed 28-Oct-15 23:51:01

So that will also affect a child in dds year I guess who is being entered for gcse french early & then AS level in year 11?
(Tiny cohort so will skew the figures)

RafaIsTheKingOfClay Thu 29-Oct-15 00:01:49

The only new GCSEs available for teaching now are English and maths so it shouldn't as long as she wouldn't be in the 1st cohort to take the new French GCSE whenever that comes out.

If she's in year 10 now it should be OK .

balletgirlmum Thu 29-Oct-15 00:02:53

He is in year 9 now.

noblegiraffe Thu 29-Oct-15 08:47:44

AS-level counts towards the Ebacc so that should be ok for the league tables.

UhtredOfBebbanburg Thu 29-Oct-15 09:32:01

Blimey. Our school does all GCSEs in Y10. Has done for years. Either we get a special pass or...the whole year will have to wait a year to do their exams. Which will have a huge knock on effect and involve completely remodelling the 6th form. What a mess!

noblegiraffe Thu 29-Oct-15 09:49:28

How does that work with the league tables? Do the Y10 results get published in that year's league tables or are they held for a year and published when the cohort finishes Y11?

ScentedJasmine Thu 29-Oct-15 09:53:32

I thought only first results could be considered. So if you got s D on first attempt [November] that would count in league table even if you got a C or above in the next summer. Can make English/ maths combined results look low if school does early entry for those subjects as 'best' results not included but first results.

RafaIsTheKingOfClay Thu 29-Oct-15 10:08:37

I'm not totally sure, noble. (no idea if uhtred and I are talking about the same school here, but it's unusual enough that we might be).

% of pupils aged 14 or under at the end of ks4 is 2% according to the 2014 league tables, compared to 0% for the rest of the LA.

noblegiraffe Thu 29-Oct-15 10:09:26

That's the thing, for current Y10, any first attempt (which would be the old GCSE) will be disregarded and not count for the league table. Only an attempt at the new GCSE (first sitting June 2017) will count.

RafaIsTheKingOfClay Thu 29-Oct-15 10:13:57

On their website it talks about their ranking as being based on points achieved 'by the end of yr11' so presumably they hold it for a year and publish when the cohort finish year 11.

ScentedJasmine Thu 29-Oct-15 10:19:57

Oh I get it....
Thanks noblegiraffe.

UhtredOfBebbanburg Thu 29-Oct-15 10:49:55

I'm not certain but I think that in the league tables it is results obtained by the end of Y11 rather than results obtained in the 20xx exam sittings. So for our school when the league tables come out every year, the results of our Y11s were actually obtained a year earlier. That's how it works with other schools that do exams early, right? If a school enters kids for maths in Y10 and further maths in Y11, the results reported for the Y11s include all the early Y10 maths takers together with the ones who took it in Y11. I think. But I don't know for sure. On the school website they display the exam results of the Y10s when they come out.

It probably is the same school, yes.

I have a DC in Y8 - so if they suddenly decide they have to change the way they are doing things it might affect her, since she is about to choose her options and would then ordinarily start KS4 next September. But if they have to hold back the kids in the year above for some or all subjects that could have a significant knock on impact - they don't plan to be teaching the whole cohort English and maths in Y11 (English and maths are both popular subjects, but not everyone does both for AS and some kids do neither).

RafaIsTheKingOfClay Thu 29-Oct-15 11:16:42

Thinking about it, given the claims it makes about it's attainment at the end of ks4 it must hold them. It's able to make those claims because all the children have sat 2 AS levels by the end of yr 11, which are probably counted in the statistics.

In all likelihood they would have had to change the 6th form anyway since A level general studies and critical thinking are being scrapped.

You'd hope the SLT might have had a plan for something like this anyway. The current government haven't exactly hidden their dislike for early entry and schools manipulating the league tables.

ScentedJasmine Thu 29-Oct-15 11:49:07

Mmm... I can see early entry can be abused but depends how used.
Those that are continuing are not doing themselves any favours league table wise so sometimes reasons perhaps not manipulative but because seems right thing to do at that school.

UhtredOfBebbanburg Thu 29-Oct-15 11:55:34

They (as in, the school) don't count the AS levels in the stats for KS4. Apart from anything else, the DFE caps the points at GCSE.

The current government love schools manipulating the league tables when it's posh schools doing IGCSE.

I wouldn't be broken hearted if they changed the 6th form now GCSEs are going to be more of a challenge. The rationale for doing it the way they did it seems to be less strong if GCSEs are tougher. But I would be concerned if my DD's year group was caught up in uncertainty above and beyond that created by the DfE already. And keeping art drama and music on the curriculum for everyone for an extra year would be a brilliant thing and would be a little tiny glimmer of sanity for everyone - but that would mean big changes at the school. It's just not set up to teach those subjects to the whole cohort in Y9. Nor DT or computing either.

ScentedJasmine Thu 29-Oct-15 11:58:35

Apologies, I think I know what I am talking about but probably not quite linking to the general theme of the thread and mebbe keep missing the point grin.

UhtredOfBebbanburg Thu 29-Oct-15 12:00:04

Scented - our school does alright in the tables. The move to a 2 year KS3 certainly wasn't a strategy to manipulate league tables.

I have a DC at another school where they are planning to introduce a 3 year KS4 and that seems much more manipulative to me, and also possibly not taking the lower attaining kids into consideration. A 2 year KS3 is fine for high attaining kids but I'm not so sure about the rest. My DS didn't consipucuously find the 3 year KS3 there boring or slow moving except in maths.

noblegiraffe Thu 29-Oct-15 17:11:17

The clarification we got from the exam board the other day (Edexcel) said

"DfE has confirmed that for the 2017 tables, only a student's first attempt at the new GCSE Mathematics (9-1) will be counted in performance tables.

This means that any results for students in Year 10 who sit examinations for the current GCSE Mathematics (1MA0 or 2MB01) in November 2015 or Summer 2016, or for students in Year 11 who sit in in November 2016, will not be counted in the 2017 tables, nor will such results count as "first entry". Such students would also need to sit the GCSE Mathematics (9-1) or AS Mathematics in Summer 2017 for results to be counted.

This will also apply to Year 10 students who sit the Level 1/Level 2 Certificate in Mathematics in January 2016 or Summer 2016. "

So yes, I think the school whose current Y10 are planning to sit English and Maths this June are going to have to have a rethink, and pretty sharpish. I wonder if they're aware?

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