Crashing out of 6 form Maths

[Horsebeforecart]

Why does my statemented autistic DD struggle with Maths in 6 form,so much so that I worry it could end her education?

Maths and Physics were her strongest subjects throughout her school career. During secondary school various essay based and humanity subjects peeled off one by one as no-go options, leaving DD with a nice compact selection of subjects she should excel at : Maths, Further Maths, Physics, Computing. But only she struggles with Maths and Physics in 6 form.

DD got A* in Maths and Physics at GCSE, but didn't take well to Mechanics. They have 6 Maths lessons per week, 4 different teachers. Each teacher gives homework and students should do extra exercises on their own as independent study. Autistic DD struggles with time. She comes from school tired and wants to do nothing for a while. When she gets her mind to do homework it is 6 pm and her ADHD tablet is going off, it is more difficult to concentrate and to make progress. DD works slowly, I don't know whether this is lethargy, tiredness, distractions (plying Minecraft and scrambling for pen and paper pretending to do homework when she hears me going up the stairs) or denial (the ostrich thing). She is just continuously tired. Now they are doing past papers and teachers are saying she is struggling across the board, going backwards on what she did at GCSE. She is now expected to get Es and Ds at best. We tried a tutor. He is saying it is nonsense and DD just needs practice to build confidence. The problem is time. At the pace DD works at home, there is no time to catch up before exams.

ASD has a lot to do with DD's learning problems. Her learning is as much the product of her statement provisions and school set up, as it is the cause. She was trained into a certain way of learning throughout secondary school. This system was "working" for her before, but not working now because basically it does not exist in 6 form. So DD didn’t manage the transition.

She says she gets "stuck" and can't unstuck herself. Some say it is a confidence problem, other say the school is going too fast for DD, so she falls behind. Another opinion is some of the teachers are not good at explaining concepts; it is a communication problem that disadvantages autistic students. Whatever it is, the new learning environment does not work for her. She had a Statement since year 6 and in year 12 they removed most of 1:1 support as the LSA cannot contribute in her selection of subjects.

I am not sure what is going wrong. Removal of 1:1, a new paradigm, emphasis on problem solving, flexibility, pace of lessons?

Does anyone have an insight, experience why students with ASD struggle in 6 form?
Why is she struggling with mechanics, but not with differentiation? Why seemingly bright DD capable for STEM subjects would totally crash?
Why is she tired?

I know many would say DD is just not bright enough etc, but this is irrelevant.

The question is what can I do, what can DD do to turn it around and to emerge in a decent university learning maths and computing and go on to have a fulfilling independent life?

How to test what the problem is?

Should we ignore school's homework and make a plan of independent revision? To Home- educate? To drop some modules?

[LIZS]

I did a level maths and it was a huge change from then 'o' level. Tbh it took until the mock in upper 6th for it to come together and I went on to get an A.

[LIZS]

Sorry posted too soon , maybe it is grasping the more abstract concepts and theories which is proving problematical rather than the calculations and maths itself.

[OddBoots]

It sounds like a mix of things but to be honest if she is in Y12 she is only a term in, ASD or not most students really feel out of their depth at this stage, especially in maths the jump to A Level is huge, as are the expectations of independence.

You have a range of options, one would be dropping further maths if it isn't essential for what she wants to do in the future, this would give her a bit more time. Another option is to carry on knowing that she can carry on another year if she needs to, although 2 years is normal it is possible to take 3, especially with a statement.

Is there anyone at the school or LEA who was of help to you last year who could give you some support and ideas this year?

[Horsebeforecart]

Thanks, LIZS, that's exactly the type of discussion I would like to have. What is it and what to do about it?

It might be the abstract nature of concepts - but how do you expand the mind of an aspie? There should be a way !

I don't even know to be honest whether they give them "arstract theories", or just show a few difficult, new problems and give a full chapter of even more new and more diffucult problems to get on with independently, without any theories. That would explain the loss of confidence. I really don't know.

[Horsebeforecart]

Yes, Oddboots, 3 years is an option and there will be someone who could help. However, I want to form an informed opinion as to what is that we need...

I don't have to make any irreversible decisions yet, at least not in the next 2 months and we will be talking to the school in the next few weeks.

At this stage I would like to gather some ideas as to what is the problem and what are possible solutions. How to put them in practice at school is an all different battle question.

[Clobbered]

Sorry can't help with the specifics here, but my NT daughter really struggled with the mechanics modules, also my DS who went on to Maths degree hated mechanics specifically. It does seem to be a particularly hard set of concepts to grasp.
You probably need to have a combined approach with some extra help academically on the things she is finding hard, but also tackling the issues around tiredness and timing of work. Would she be amenable to doing some work in the early morning instead? Is that an option? I think it's very hard for any kid to do a full day in school and then have to come home and carry on. How much time does she have free during the day? Could she get some of her work done during free periods or at lunchtime?
Is she sleeping OK? Is she staying up late gaming? Could be contributing to the tiredness. Is it worth a check-up with the GP to exclude any physical causes that could be contributing to the tiredness?

[noblegiraffe]

Mechanics is usually only a small part of A-level maths and further maths. Which modules is she doing? How is she getting on with the others? Is this a 'jump to A-level' thing or is mechanics the only maths issue?

A lot of students struggle with mechanics because the questions don't tell you what method to use, and decisions about methods or trying things out with a question they don't know how to start is something they are not used to. The pure modules are much more 'differentiate this, integrate that, find the area of the other' which is fine if you know how to differentiate etc.

Is it interpreting what the question is asking for the main issue? (A possibility with ASD).

With tiredness, my first suspicion would be Minecraft late at night, as you've mentioned it. Make no electronics in her bedroom past 10pm a rule and see if that helps.

If her adhd tablet is wearing off too early, could her dosage be amended? (No idea!)

[Horsebeforecart]

She is doing M1, M2, C1-C3, FP1.

M1 is her biggest problem. Interpreating the question is a problem. One long question is much more difficult for her than a sequence of questions on the intermediate small steps. How to help her to develop a flexible problem solving approach - to solve unstructured problems? Her autism here is an additional barrier compared to NT students. She adapts less quickly, resists even.

She used to do everything in her head and then writing it down. Now it's impossible.

Apparently even with C1, she gets stuck on past paper because it is "not recent". Why doesn't she retain the knowledge?

I am not sure about the "abstract concepts". I would think a trajectory of a ball is more concrete than differentiation and logarithms, but she found them easy. Why is she struggling with the questions about projectiles?

My intuition tells me the problem is the mix of developing a new structured approach to unstructured problems, confidence, tiredness and pace of work, not enough practice and not enough time to practice.

Noble, there is something about a "big step", but I don't know what is it exactly. Could you possibly articulate what is this big step and how my DD could try to bridge this step?

[Hassled]

Is there a sympathetic SENDCo at the school you could talk to? The concentration issues, for example, they must have come across before - they might have some strategies to help.

All I can tell you is that my NT DS1 and DD both really struggled with Maths, having done well at GCSE - neither pursued it beyond AS. My Dyspraxic/AS DS2 is flying - absolutely loves it, and completely "gets" it. It is hugely different from what I gather at A Level - much more of a leap than other subjects.

[skylark2]

"She used to do everything in her head and then writing it down. Now it's impossible."

Maths is like this. Everyone (except the ultra-geniuses) gets to a point where they can't do it in their head. It;s really quite common for this to be at the step up from GCSE to A level.

I think you and she need to talk to the maths teacher. If she can't do maths unless she can do it in her head, she's probably taking the wrong subject.

[Horsebeforecart]

If she can't do maths unless she can do it in her head, she's probably taking the wrong subject.

Skylark, with respect, the above is a totally artificial construct and a ridiculous one at that. Its is totally ridiculous to suggest that anyone is "unable" to do something if they can only do it in their head up to a point. This person just need to be trained to write down the stuff as she solves the problem, that's all. Writing cannot be taken as a final limit of ability to think, even for an aspie :)

I should add that training to write the solution is exactly the job of the school as described in the statement of SEN, the job they omitted to do, because they were quite happy that she does it in her head.

Instead of hasty conclusions, could you suggest someting DD can use?

[Horsebeforecart]

Are any mums out there with some of the insights and experience with DC with ASD?

Any teachers that had 6-formers with ASD?

What actions would help?

[PeaStalks]

No experience of ASD but two DC who doing maths. My observation is that lots of A GCSE students fall apart at AS level. DS2 just did his mocks and got A in core 1 but not one of his friends (all of whom got A at GCSE) managed an A in fact there were several Es and Us.
DS1 doing Maths at uni now but his cohort were the same. Lots dropped out. He was similar to your DD in that he did everything in his head and overcoming that was one of his biggest learning curves.

[Horsebeforecart]

Thank you PeaStalks. Indeed I hear that a lot if students struggle at AS.

Could you think of the reasons that set your DS apart in that he did hold it together?

Why do A* GCSE students "fall apart" ?

[howtodrainyourflagon]

Hello - I have an Oxbridge maths degree and I struggled with mechanics at A level. I am a pure mathematician - some people are, and you can be very good at maths while loathing and being awful at mechanics. I had to do it as a compulsory option in my university course and I spent every Thursday that term sobbing in the library over my exercise sheet! It's pretty normal at university to discover you have a strong preference for pure or applied, but this does hit some people quite early, and quite strongly. This strong inclination towards pure rather than applied may be linked to the ASD.

I advise you to see if your daughter can do a statistics option instead, as pure mathematicians tend to find this less awful than mechanics. If not, it is possible to tackle mechanics with a pure maths mindset - you'll need to find a sympathetic tutor who can establish which principles your dd needs to learn (previously at GCSE maths I expect she was able to work things out from first principles in her head) and give her some practice in the sorts of questions that are asked. These are formulaic for mechanics and it's possible to learn them.

Don't give up - your dd can clearly do the pure maths stuff, but there's a bit of a mindset shift needed for mechanics. With support and a bit of teeth-gritting in her part, she should be able to tackle it (as the underlying maths is actually easier than the pure stuff).

re the complex questions - the complexity is greater than GCSE but they are quite formulaic once you've done a few of them. Don't despair!

[Cerisier]

I find the M1 course does tend to come together at the end but really it is pretty straightforward if good diagrams are drawn for each question. I think the textbooks for M1 can be a bit variable- if DD's textbook isn't very good do a search on Amazon for a well regarded one and see if that helps. Youtube has plenty of worked solutions to M1 questions by ExamSolutions and Khan Academy, they might be worth a look to see if DD likes them. If the school has a subscription to mymaths, there are lessons on all the M1 topics on that- DD could go through them at her own pace and try the online homeworks.

As howto says it might be worth seeing if DD could swap and do more statistics modules (I am guessing she will do S1 and S2 in Y13, will she also do M3, S3 or decision maths modules? )

Like others, I think the issue of tiredness needs addressing if the sheer amount of work required for A level is to be done by DD. She can't do any of the above suggestions if she is exhausted.

[Horsebeforecart]

Oh, Howto, thank you for that pat. I needed it a lot a little bit :)

I am not ready to give up and I must say, inspite of a long period of denial, DD gritted her teeth recently, and she is puting up a fight.
We have a tutor that certainly can pin point the maths issues.

We spoken to the teachers but, although they have plenty of helpdful technical suggestions, they don't really know what to do. All they could suggest is to to 10 times more practice. I am a firm believer in practice and there is a part of a mathematician that is a little like a pianist - need to do finger exercises every day. However I do not belive conceptual problems could be solved with overwhelming quantity of practice.

I feel there is something else, and I am not sure what and how to fix it.

I do belive firmly it is fixable though. It is something to do with ASD, some switch I need to flick ...there must be some leaver that would make a difference. Where is it?

DD says she struggles with understanding the questions and panics and hesitates as to which interpretation of the question to pursue, gets confused and goes in circles.

Is there a book, an exercise, some practice that would help her to achieve sucess in the first initial steps before getting confused, so she would build confidence and not go in circles of negative reinforcement?

Noblegiraffe?

[PeaStalks]

They don't all fall apart, it's just that I know of many of my DC cohort who did, for different reasons. It sounds as though your DD should get there in the end, you just need the right person to help the penny drop.
DS1 (the one who did it all in his head) ended up with A A in maths and FM and is now doing a degree in maths, so he obviously overcame his dislike of mechanics sufficiently. Howto explains it well, he loves pure maths in all it's forms and taught himself to manage mechanics without loving it. His technique was to study every past paper possible and go through the examiner's report with a fine tooth comb.

[Cerisier]

Another thought- can DD opt for FP3 so she can ditch an applied module?

[Horsebeforecart]

Ditch an applied module? Is that M or S?

I think DD will cope well with Decisions. I don't know how she will cope with Statistics.

What kind of careers are using FP3 and what other subjects / modules are "facilitsating" ?

[Cerisier]

I checked the Spec and you need either FP2 or FP3 for A2 FM, not both. Applied modules are the S1-4, M1-5 and D1-2 modules. C1-4 and FP1-3 are pure Maths modules. For FM you need 2 pure modules and 4 applied ones.

Can I ask about weekends- is DD able to work solidly at weekends, when she is less tired?

[Horsebeforecart]

Yes, she can and does work solidly on Sunday and half of Saturday (half a day on Saturday is sleep and play). She does work on week-days as well.

However in reality not all of this time is productive. I am wondering whether she needs a break to get over tiredness and be more productive on other days of the week / hours in the day.

Do you have any schedules in mind, Cerisier?

How to break the week to let her recover, breeze, and work hard?

[Cerisier]

The trouble with being too prescriptive, though it must seem tempting, is that is isn't helping her to organise herself. What will happen at university?

She is certainly putting in enough time, a day and a half working at the weekend in Year 12 is plenty. In Year 12 my DD did one day of work per weekend. In Year 13 she worked both days.

However if DD is messing about on social media and wasting time, then she has a decision to make. Really it has to be her decision though doesn't it? Does she think she is wasting time on social media/electronics? Either way, how does she think she could work smarter?

[AalyaSecura]

I think howto is right about they key thing here, working to understand the patterns and clues in the questions that show the way forward. That is the main thing lots of practice is trying to do - spot and apply the necessary methodology.

Think about what she is doing at the moment as learning to read in Reception by 'look and say' - most children do learn the phonics codes through this method, but some struggle to do it. Then compare to synthetic phonics teaching - where children are told what the codes are explicitly rather than having to learn to spot, classify and apply the rules themselves unconsciously.

So the focus should be about the mechanics codes and learning what these are explicitly - what makes one question different to another, what are the clues about which methodology needs to be applied. And after that, work out how to apply these codes with a bit more flexibility (the equivalent of the 'tricky words').

Am not a maths teacher, am a psychologist (but without any expertise in ASD, so I have no special insight). And one who loved pure maths and struggled with mechanics!

[Horsebeforecart]

Oh, thank you, AalyaSecura, this is so absolutely helpful!

I was looking for some conceptual framework to guide DD to not be stuck but didn't know where to start, and you suggest to start and be guided by the codified cues in the question. Maybe the problem is DD misreads cues and goes on false tracks. Somehow without your phonics example I wasn't thinking in that direction. This might be the missing part of the puzzle. That's why MN is so great!

I must stress I appreciate all comments, and please anyone do share any thoughts on helping DD to get out of impasse.

I sense DD's problem is not the ability (the tutor say se does not see any difficulty at all, he doesn't understand where the problem is) and not laziness/attitude as such, but some SEN barrier that demotivates her and makes her go in circles and creates negative reinforcement. And it has to do with language and some patterns of thinking.

The SEN specialists don't have any answers as Mechanics is outside of their expertise, nor do the teachers as they don't completely understand the effects of DD's SEN. They just comment on what works for NT students.

Probably what I should do is to try a dozens of questions with DD and spot the coded pattern for myself. So at least I would get what is the problem and what is to be done. I was just hoping that anyone has already been through this and knows some answers... :)

Then I could set up some exercise for DD so she could spot that patterns for herself in small steps with possitive results.

DD needs most of all is building confidence and positive reinforcement, so a step by step success is better that the eluse big bang.