DD not given the second language she wanted - any advice on what to do? Any MFL teachers who can advise?

[topbanana1]

DD is going into year 8. She got given German by the school in year 7 and all children choose a second language to start in year 8. She wanted to do Spanish - her grandparents live in Spain, she's been speaking it for years as we go there once/twice every year. But there are only 2 Spanish groups per year so not all pupils who want Spanish get it, and it's only given to those in the top sets. She was struggling a bit in German initially (rubbish teacher) so I had to do a lot of work with her before her exam to teach her the stuff the German teacher should have done but didn't, and she ended up with good marks in the exam - in the top half of the class which should have ensured she was put in a good German set and therefore eligible for Spanish.

She is going to be beyond gutted to get given the default other language (French) - she has been looking forward to studying Spanish at school for years, bought herself teach-yourself-Spanish courses, talked about wanting to study it at uni etc. She has absolutely no interest in or knowledge of French. She's borderline dyslexic - which affects her ability at spelling - and would make Spanish, with its rigid spelling rules (which she's familiar with) a much better choice than French.

I'm going to try to meet the deputy head/head of languages who wrote to me about it asap to try to get them to change their minds, but am not hopeful, as from experience, once they've made a decision, they don't like to lose face or set a precedent by changing it. I know she'll give up French as soon as she can at the end of year 9 and it's a waste of her - and the school's - time to teach it to her. I love French, personally - but it is not right for her.

I'm now wondering about getting her to study Spanish GCSE outside school instead? Does anyone have any experience of doing language GCSEs outside school? Or starting now and possibly joining the GCSE class at school in year 10, if that is even feasible?

Does anyone have any advice on how to persuade the school? Any language teachers with advice??

I'm dreading seeing her face when she gets back from the school event she's at tonight. :(

[topbanana1]

bumpl - please!

[Wolfiefan]

It does sound like Spanish would be a better fit. I would approach the school. You make some good points. It would also be better for their results to let her study a language she loves and has already started to learn. Don't forget to say how eager you are to support her.

[topbanana1]

Thank you, Wolfiefan - are you a language teacher? I'm glad someone else can see there are valid reasons for her being allowed to do Spanish and that make it a better option for her than French; just have to persuade the school of that now...

She's sad but I'm trying to be bright about it to her (seething/demoralised away from her).

[Mammuzza]

I can't help with the persuade the school bit. But she can do Spanish IGCSE as an extrnal candidate.

Istituo Cervantes has an online course. My kid will be using it alongside his school classes becuase he wants to take Spanish as far as A level in the future. Considering how much courses can cost, the price isn't bed. They have both with and without tutor options. londres.cervantes.es/en/courses_spanish/students_spanish/information_virtual_classroom_spanish.htm

For all the ins and puts of doing an IGCSE as an external candidate I suggest joining the home education exams yahoo group. So you can find out about specs, exam centres... all the fun stuff like that.

I'll go dig out the link for the exams group.

[Mammuzza]

exams yahoo group

They have a good wiki too

[EBearhug]

I have done both German and Spanish to AS level as an adult. She'll need to be quite motivated, but it sounds like she is anyway, and if she's learning other languages, she should be okay, in that she'll at least understand the grammar concepts. However, there have been lots of cuts in adult education in the last few years, and the number of courses have been cut down a lot - new brochures should be out shortly. Also, if you're under 18, you may need to provide a letter from her normal school to say they agree to the extra studying.

I do hope things go well at the school, though. If I were them, with a strong case like yours, where she's already trying to learn, and is really keen to do so, and has Spanish connections - well, I'd be keen to encourage a student like that, rather than one who is just doing Spanish because they're expected to do two languages.

If they don't agree, it's not all bad - she's keen on learning Spanish anyway, so she will. And now she's probably going to get German and French too, so she'll end up with three languages, rather than two.

[topbanana1]

Thanks for great links, Mammuzza - really helpful and exactly the sort of thing I was looking for.

Ebearhug - thanks for your hopeful and helpful comments.

Nervous about phoning the school now, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[Mammuzza]

Just dug out the Spanish revision folder..

This one is a bit old but takes the learner on a trip around the Spanish speaking world in the context of some kind of investigative drama thingie. DS found it a good first step into listening beyond simple sentences in synthetic contexts. But is not riveting. Allgedly.

I'll post some more links. Have to do them one at a time cos the iPad hates it when I click off onto a new page and ears my posts. But I have a couple of decent grammar sites, nothing earth shattering, but good solid practice. Oh... and try duolingo.com. It's a free app. Good for consolidation. I also saw a pretty good book for IGCSE.. it was edexcel. Looks nice and gives her the chance to make sure she is covering her bases syllabus wise. Once you know where you stand, if you have to go it alone you can pick the exam board that works best for you and then picking a book will be easier.

PS The IGCSE includes speaking now. So if rellies back in Spain are fine using skype, worth her having regular chats in Spanish with them that covers the topics in the speaking exam.

[AuditAngel]

I took Spanish GCSE as an adult. DH is half Spanish, his friends from home don't speak English.

I enjoyed it and was motivated. The school may change their mind if they realise she is so motivated and likely to do better and get improved results.

[Mammuzza]

pretty extensive grammar exercises free membership gives you as much access as you'll need.

[BackforGood]

Did you explain all this to the school at the time they would have been trying to work out who should do Spanish and who should do French? They will want the best results for their pupils too, and I would expect if they knew someone had relatives in Spain and would travel there fairly regularly that would make a lot of sense to put them in the Spanish group - of course if they weren't party to that information they wouldn't know to. Much harder to change things afterwards - you are then removing another child from what they've been offered. Surely you can see that would be an issue?

[mumtoateen]

That's life. she has to suck it up and deal with it. I desperately wanted Spanish in Year 8 and got German. big woop, move along, happy with having taken it now.
You shouldn't have set her up for something that wasn't guaranteed.

[Mammuzza]

if they weren't party to that information they wouldn't know to

Did they ask ?

They have had the child in their school for at least one ac. year. They required students to make a choice between languages. Both those contexts offer them ways of discovery. What steps did they take to learn a little about the motivations of thr kids they were divvying up into language groups ?

This is not just a "not win" for the OP's chilld. It's a "no win" for the school who have potential just done themselves out of an A or A* and replaced it with ... who knows what, perhaps a D or lower.

There is a solution for the OP's child. Do the bare minimum to avoid detention in French, and save her time and energy for studying Spanish in her own time. She'll get the language she wants. The practice of self study offers many advantages both in terms of the process and possibly added value in terms of uni applications.

What's the solution for the school ? If they can't change now.. there isn't one. They get to suck up the loss of a high grade and possibly a no grade if the child decides not to sit French.

Maybe, just maybe, the school can learn from this and ask students why they are choosing the language they are picking, so if there are fewer spaces than needed they can make sure they are moving the "not all that bothered either way really" kids to the class they didn't choose.

[topbanana1]

Thanks again, Mammuzza, for your brilliant resources - so helpful.

In answer to the questions, no I didn't tell the school because we had no opportunity to - the form just asked us to list first and second choices. There was no room to write reasons or justifications.

But we were told verbally that provided dd got into one of the higher German sets, she would be able to do Spanish. So she worked incredibly hard to get good marks in her German exam - and she did get good marks. So she assumed it would be OK. She hasn't been told her German group for next year, so I don't know if she's been put in a low set for that too. That's one of the things I'll have to find out. If so, I'll be very cross, as her good exam mark wasn't a 'fluke' - it was considerably better than her mark in exams in the spring term, but that was because I sat down with her and did the work her teacher should have done with the class, but didn't. And because dd worked really hard. She has demonstrated that she can do well in German - she should be placed in a set due to that, not due to her struggling initially.

[topbanana1]

And mumtoateen - she doesn't have to 'suck it up and see' - we have the alternative of helping her access Spanish outside school. I didn't 'set her up' for anything - the enthusiasm came from her alone, but I'm not going to blame my child for daring to be passionate about learning a language. We had no reason to assume she wouldn't get it; I don't know anyone else who failed to get their language of choice.

[GnomeDePlume]

It is possible to study a language outside of school and use the school as an exam centre.

DD1 studied a third language outside of school. The language was of a country we had lived in for a few years and which DD had spoken fluently when we had left that country a year or so before DD went into secondary school.

For GCSE all DD1 needed was her own knowledge plus lots and lots of exam practice (past papers, mark scheme and examiners comments are a godsend and not expensive).

For A level we had to find a tutor. This took a while to sort. Eventually we ended up with a young native speaker who was living in this country. The tutor wasnt a professional but what she was was intelligent and keen to encourage someone to learn her language. She worked DD through AS and A level.

DD1 ended up with As at GCSE and A level.

The school was very pleased to get 'free' exam results and didnt charge for exam enty fees.

[topbanana1]

Thanks, Mammuzza, again, for your comments.

Yes, I hope I can persuade the school that it is in their best interests to have her study a language she's passionate about and good at - as well as in her interest.

But as you say, if not, I can help her access Spanish outside school. Languages are definitely subjects that one can access outside formal education and at any age; I pointed out to her that many people study languages at uni that they haven't previously learnt at all; they just do a crash course. I'm a TEFL teacher, so have years of experience of teaching people languages, albeit my own (!) and I do know some Spanish, so can definitely help her.

Will call soon - nervous...

[GnomeDePlume]

The good thing about studying outside of school is that your DD can take the exam early if that will work for her. This means that she could take the GCSE in say end year 8, AS in Year 10, A level in year 11.

Find out who in the school is responsible for exam entry - you will need to deal with this person directly to ensure your DD is entered into the correct exams at the correct time.

The only thing to limit your DD is her commitment and enthusiasm.

[Mammuzza]

I'm a TEFL teacher

Snap!

Since the GPs are in Spain, how about seeing if a local kid wants to do a keypal exchange to improve their wirtten English.

If you get too many takers.... I'll happily mop up an extra one for DS.

One thing... make a list of all the resources, activities you could do with her. Contact the school with a self study plan saying "this is what I've put together so far... any suggestions for anything else that might help DD self study towards the IGCSE and which exam board do you think we should go with ?"

It's not nagging, so they won't feel put upon, but it will communicate that she is serious about Spanish, in a way she isn't about French. Even if they don't move her the school's Spanish teacher might be given a heads up and be willing to point you in any directions they think will be helful.

[Mammuzza]

AS in Year 10, A level in year 11

I thought they were abolishing the AS exam ?

I have only skimmed the A level changes cos we are all about IGCSE at the moment, but I'm sure I read that it was going back to one exam after 2 years now. Mind you, there have been that many changes I am almost dizzy and still trying to work out if it's a GCSE issue only, or also impacts IGCSE.

And now Gove has got the chop there is probably more change to come.

[holmessweetholmes]

I'm a languages teacher. It's a shame she hasn't been allocated the language she wanted, but I must say that I fall into the 'suck it up' camp.

Schools have to have a system of allocating languagesbecause of class size and staffing limitations. They need to stick to their system. Normally exceptions are only made for students with a cast-iron reason (I.e. not just a preference).

Doing an extra language outside school is fine if the motivation is there, but learning 3 foreign languages at once could be a bit much!

I think the supposed differences in difficulty between (European) languages are exaggerated. The same skills are required for learning any language - if you can do well at one then you can do well at any. If anything, I have noticed that dyslexic children sometimes do better at German,l.

[GnomeDePlume]

Dont know at the moment about AS. DD1 has just taken her main A levels this year and we have a gap before the next one takes theirs so I havent kept up.

Any road up it wouldnt really change the road map for OP's DD. If she wanted to she could take the GCSE asap then move onto the A level syllabus and take whichever exams are required at the time.

It really is possible. Doing this has given DD1 an extra academic A level which gave her a lot of confidence when she started her main A levels.

[GnomeDePlume]

Whether it is difficult to learn a third language will depend on the student. DD1 took 3 but by not taking them all to the same level at the same time it was totally manageable.

[Hakluyt]

"
"This is not just a "not win" for the OP's chilld. It's a "no win" for the school who have potential just done themselves out of an A or A* and replaced it with ... who knows what, perhaps a D or lower."

She has an aptitude for languages- she would have to try some to get a D or lower at GCSE!!!!!!!!!

And as for the D only mattering to the school- there are circumstances where you most certainly don't want a D on your CV, believe me.

[Mammuzza]

but learning 3 foreign languages at once could be a bit much!

She doesn't have to learn 3. She can learn 2 and do the bare minimum to avoid detention with French. Few learn a language via the "so not motivated - doing bare minimum" route. so realistically, French won't cpunt as a language being learned. It'll be a bit of parrot fashion rote learning where unavoidable. Not fun to have in your classroom from a teacher's perspective, but thems the breaks when people are divvied up into language groups based on lottery.

I'd be gutted, to lose somebody enthusiastic about learning English from my class becuase they were put in another language group that they didn't want. Becuase intrinsic motivation is like the raising agent in a cake. Makes all the difference.

Not going to happen to me becuase there is no option to drop English over here. However if it were a factor, I think I'd be in favour of introducing steps to make sure things like this were as avoidable as possible. By including a "motivations" box in the options form.

Any road up it wouldnt really change the road map for OP's DD. If she wanted to she could take the GCSE asap then move onto the A level syllabus and take whichever exams are required at the time.

Oh I agree. DS's school doesn't offer Spanish at A level. But there are plenty of distance options so he'll be doing it via the self study and external candidate route.