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Secondary education

private secondary school after state primary

42 replies

chisigirl · 12/09/2006 10:28

We live in an area with fairly good state schools and I have always been happy for my children to be in the public education system. However, the secondary schools aren't too impressive (from what I can make out) and I've always assumed that if DH and I really cut back/save up we can afford to opt out to put DS1 and DS2 in private secondary schools when the time comes.

HOWEVER when I mentioned this in passing to a friend, she said "Don't think they might have a hard time getting a place at private schools after doing their primary education in state schools." She reckons that the state sector is 1-2 years behind the private sector so, even if bright, the boys would have a hard time getting a place. My friend doesn't have an agenda here, BTW, as her children are all girls and the local state girls' school is fantastic.

If anyone has experience of this, I'd be very grateful.

OP posts:
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foxinsocks · 12/09/2006 10:30

I think you need to look at your local private schools and ask them what their intake is from the state schools (and ask specifically about yours because they will probably have some idea of the standard of pupil).

I know round here that a lot of people go private at secondary level so at some of the private schools, their intake is largely from the state sector.

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NotAnOtter · 12/09/2006 10:41

loads of children round here do this - none get any stick. its very normal!

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Issymum · 12/09/2006 10:46

I think it may vary from school to school. We asked this question of Guildford High School (something of an academic hothouse) and it responded that the school hadn't taken a girl from the best performing local primary school for 2 or 3 years as the girls simply didn't meet the standard. I was surprised at that as I had assumed that going from a state primary to a private senior school was very common. However, other private schools may have different selection criteria and I would have thought it's worth asking the question.

I think your question may have to be quite precise to get useful information: In the past x years, how many children have applied from y school and how many of those children have you accepted?

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Issymum · 12/09/2006 10:47

I should add in defence of Guildford High School that it was 'disappointed' about this!

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foxinsocks · 12/09/2006 10:48

lol issymum!

did your daughter end up there or did you go elsewhere?

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fairyjay · 12/09/2006 11:02

They may struggle if you are looking at a highly academic school, depending on the entrance exams. I think most private schools do VR and NVR tests, which state schools normally don't cover. It's finding the right school for the right child though - which means loads of visits and questions! Good Luck.

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Loshad · 12/09/2006 11:26

I wouldn't expect your children to get any stick, but yes you might have to give them some extra tuition to get them up to speed for the entrance exams - some of the brightest kids in DS1's class have come from state primaries, but i know a lot of them had a tutor for a term or so before the entrance tests..

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Lilymaid · 12/09/2006 11:33

DS1 went to highly academic independent after attending state primary schools. He settled down very quickly, even though half his year had come from the school's prep and some of the others came from other independents. He was well up in every subject - particularly Maths where he didn't do anything new at all in the first year. He hadn't been taught French at primary, but the school had a class for those who hadn't studied French (and it turned out that the Prep School French lessons had been completely ineffective) anyway.

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bossykate · 12/09/2006 11:38

in london there is a huge movement from state primary to private/public secondary every year. the posh london day schools have intakes at 11 to accommodate this (if just taking candidates from preps, the intake would be at 13 only). however, i suspect that many/most of the children making this move have additional tuition for the tests.

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SSSandy · 12/09/2006 11:46

Think you'll have to come up with a plan to prepare dc. Wouldn't leave it to chance.

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beatie · 12/09/2006 11:50

It's worth visitng the schools you have in mind and enquiring about how many pupils come from state schools.

Dh works at an Independent Secondary school. It is academically selective but it takes in a good percentage of state primary pupils. It has a huge 'catchment' area however.

The other thing is that when they mark the entrance exam papers, they make adjustments for the pupils from primary state schools.

I think your friend is wrong to imply it is impossible in all schools. But it is worth you finding out what is most likely in your area.

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frogs · 12/09/2006 13:05

We applied last year for places for dd1 in a range of pushy London schools, including City of London Girls and South Hampstead High as well as state grammar schools. She did have a year or so of extra teaching, but not specifically exam cramming, more all-round English and Maths tuition to make up for the short-comings of the curriculum in her state primary school.

She was offered places in all the schools she applied to, including one scholarship. She is naturally quite academic, but there is a big transfer of kids from state primaries to the London day schools, though some far more than others. I disagree with bossykate about the prep school kids transferring at 13, though -- that may be the case at country or co-ed preps, but most of the London girls' preps stop at 11, so state school children are competing with the privately-educated ones. Outside London, though, and particularly for boys, transferring at 11+ might be an advantage as privately-educated boys are more likely to transfer at 13.

You should be able to find out where your preferred school's intake comes from -- some London schools are quite happy to supply on request a list of local schools, state and private, from which they have accepted children over the past, say, 5 years.

Find out, too, what the secondary school's entrance exam consists of. Verbal and non-verbal reasoning papers are designed to measure innate ability, so as long as your child has had a chance to practise the appropriate tasks (you can buy workbooks in eg. WHSmiths) you should be fine. If the exam consists of traditional written exams in English and Maths then some extra tuition might not go amiss. IME the most likely gaps in a primary-educated child's repertoire are in the area of essay-writing (dd1 did virtually no extended writing in school of the type required in private-school entrance exams), more sophisticated reading-comprehensions (the Y6 SATS ones are pretty basic and idiot-proof) and more advanced maths (eg fractions beyond just the basics, simple expressions and equations and more complex problem-solving).

I would personally be wary of tutoring a child to the point where they just scrape into a school, though. Dd1 is happily ensconced at secondary now and loving it, but I wouldn't send ds to the boys' equivalent of her school because he's bright but not exceptionally so, and I would hate for him to struggle. I think aiming to have your child in a school where they can be in the top third, or possibly top half of the ability range is ideal -- I would be reluctant to send a child to a school where they would be in the bottom 30%, as I hate the idea of them having to stress about keeping up.

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chisigirl · 12/09/2006 13:38

Thanks so much to everyone who took the time to reply and share their opinions and experience. Look like I'm off to do some research!

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RTKangaMummy · 12/09/2006 13:50

DS has just gone from state church primary to indep senior school

{DH also teaches there}

There is an intake at 11 and at 13 {from prep school}

The 11 year olds come from state primary and indep primary

When we asked about french {DS had only done it once a week for 1 year}

We were told there was no difference between the ability range betweeen state and indep primary.

The friends he hasd made are 2 from indep primary and 1 from state primary.

It is a very competitiive entrance at 11, maths, verbal reasoning and English essay and comprehension, {and then Interview + maths questions}

BUT I DEFFO AGREE WITH FROGS

Only do it if your DD/DS will be bright enough to thrive rather than just to pass the exam

iyswim

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Issymum · 12/09/2006 13:59

Foxinsocks: DD1 failed the 3+ entrance exam for Guildford High School (see Issymum soulsearching threads passim). She ended up at a very dinky, Catholic (we're not Catholic), non-selective Prep school. Everytime I pick her up or drop her off, I feel like I've wandered into a 1950s, rose-tinted timewarp (all wood panelling and boaters and lunches cooked in a kitchen with wooden dressers in Cath Kidston style greens and quirky rules and outdoor shoes and blackboards and chalk and all the staff know your name) and I wonder how on earth we ended up there! I should say that DD1 is extremely happy and secure there.

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bossykate · 12/09/2006 14:13

frogs, ahem, that maybe true for girls but you will find that boys london public schools and preps are still into common entrance at 13.

issymum, that sounds very much like the school i went to. it's still around and still incredibly angela brazil for catholic gels.

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bossykate · 12/09/2006 14:18

and anyway my point was not that state and private/public school children don't compete at the same time, but that the private/public schools anticipate an intake from the state sector. therefore, the notion that state educated primary school children don't have a hope of getting into a good private/public school at secondary level is ill-founded imo&e.

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RTKangaMummy · 12/09/2006 14:23

DS's school is classed as an outer london school

60 for 11+ and 90 for 13+

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frogs · 12/09/2006 14:24

ahem to you too, bk! I specifically said girls' London preps stop at 11. But there aren't actually that many trad boys' public schools left in London now -- I can only think of St Paul's and Westminster that only start at 13+, and they both have associated prep schools which have an intake of state school kids at 11+ (well, Westminster do anyway, as state-educated dnephew has just started there).

Highgate are now co-ed and start at 11 in the senior school. City boys has an intake at 10+, weirdly as well as 11+ and 13. Latymer are now co-ed too, no? Even some country public schools seem to have gone that way, eg. Oundle has an 11+ intake as well as 13. I think it's only if you're after the full-on public school Eton, Harrow or Marlborough experience that a primary school finishing at 11 would present an insurmountable problem.

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Issymum · 12/09/2006 14:26

Without getting into this debate(!), I was surprised to find out that the main independent boys' school here (Guildford), the Royal Grammar School, starts at 13. It's a day school only. In fact most boys' independent schools round here seem to do so whilst the girls' schools start at 11.

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RTKangaMummy · 12/09/2006 14:27

My cousin DS is at Harrow atm he was at prep school

Harrow put the boys into prep schiool from 11 - 13

so you can apply to go

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bossykate · 12/09/2006 14:29

oh fhs frogs! i fail to see why you are jumping down my throat. you "disagreed" with me over something i hadn't actually said.

anyway, back to the OP, imo a state educated primary school child will get into a private secondary but may need coaching to do so.

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foxinsocks · 12/09/2006 14:31

aww issy, it sounds lovely (and lol at the 'failing' at age 3. I seem to remember your threads from the time!)

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batters · 12/09/2006 14:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

frogs · 12/09/2006 14:46

Wasn't jumping down yr throat, bk, just ventured to disagree with you on a minor detail. Mainly wanted to reassure the OP that from our experience (now considering potential private secondary for ds) that the 11+ finish at primary school doesn't seem to be a problem wrt quite a wide range of boys schools that we've considered.

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