Secondary Schools Appeals - Typical Questions To/From Panel

[JohFlow]

Hi There,

So appeals case is now submitted and it is time to mentally prepare for the hearing.

Think it would be helpful if panel experts (that is panel members, parents who have already appealed, writers on the subject etc. ) could write down a collective list of questions typically raised at appeals.

These can be raised by the panel or parents.

Can we keep it just to a list?


I have some starters....

From Panels :

1.) Why is this school the only one for your DS/DD?
2.) Why do you think your DD/DS is an exceptional case?

From Parents :

1.) How do you measure the accuracy of your mapping systems?
2.) When was the PAN last revised? Has the school increased capacity since then?

Over to you....

[HPparent]

It doesn't really work like that. I am a panellist and chair. We normally do ask questions to the school about their case, such as how the numbers admitted were arrived at and the consequences of adding an extra child. If the rules are complex we may also ask questions about that.

If the parent has a particular issue such as not understanding the rules or alleging that the school has not applied the criteria correctly we ask questions of the school to get to the bottom of it.

As for the parents, we ask questions to try and draw out what their case is. Many of the appeals I see simply boil down to a family preferring another school because results/behaviour are better or they want their child to be educated in a particular faith.

If there is a health or social reason for admission we try and bring it out and give the parents every chance to give their case. The successful appellants argue a strong case and are able to reply to questions in a way that strengthens that case.

Many cases are extremely weak but we want appellants to at least feel they have had a fair hearing. I always feel happy if we are able to allow appeals. I attended some last year where none were allowed - a depressing day for all.

[HPparent]

Tiggytape makes a good point but we do have a school which has implemented a one way system because it is so cramped and decrepid, so you might want to take that into account.

We had another school which for years argued they could not go above pan - even had diagrams of their class room layout, it was a new build with I think 27 per class. Then they suddenly increased their intake to 30 per class. I was furious tbh.

[sham80]

hpparent am stressed to as to what to expect on appeal day letter came and is in may any information will be helful

[sham80]

just wondering weather to take the printed stuff of pan and final allocation of pupils. showing they took extra children will it help

[HPparent]

Sham80 there are quite a few appeal threads and posters have described the process more eloquently than I am able to.

Basically I would say to bring whatever evidence you want but you are unlikely to win an appeal on PAN alone. Even if you destroyed the schools case, other appellants might still have a greater argument than you to get a place and win their appeals. The panel may allow 1 or 2 appeals not 20 and they will be children who really need to go there.

I have seen people spend money on solicitors to minutely examine PAN but in my experience the panellists are likely to be familiar with all the arguments.

You need to argue why your child HAS to go to that school and that particular school alone and why no other school can meet his/her needs or is suitable.

[sham80]

am not appealing just on pan thats just extra stuff i found its social reason we had to breakins the last 1 just gone christmas time which has affected son a lot his confidence sense of security gone he wont play out alone so for this reason he to scared to travel alone on bus as i can pick him up have to pick a son from primary and all his friends are going to school am appealing for his support network his friends are all there so he will flourish more etc a got the crime ref numbers to proof not making it up

[HPparent]

Sham80 I would strongly advise getting a letter from a GP, psychologist or other health professional who has seen the child and can state in the letter that he needs to attend that school. Proof of the crime is not enough you have to make the link between the child's fears and the need to attend that school. Presumably the current school is aware? A letter from the Head or Senco would also help.

Sorry to hear about your son and hope he is getting the help he needs and feels a bit more confident. You have all been through a stressful time.

[sham80]

the school was aware with first burglary cos he took few days off and told them this time to as medical goes we had victom support twice come out but he didnt like it so we helped him cope over 3 years lots of reasurrance etc but then just wen he got bit confidence burglary in decemmber 2013 he didnt see docter etc and now he heard he have to go on own bus its flared up again his anxiety scared really unhappy but he ssing doctor on monday see if she can help

[JohFlow]

Thank you for your comments so far.

Sorry to hear of your DS's situation Sham. Hopefully time will be a healer.

The question on reportable incidents in corridors is a good one Tiggy.

Do you have examples of questions that may draw out the case for parents HP?

Any other questions that could be useful?

[admission]

To be honest it is difficult to be sure what to ask as each case is different and you ask questions as a panel member to make sure you understand the case that is being presented from parents.

The school's case tends to be somewhat more predictable. I will always want to be sure what the actual facilities are in the school and just how near are they to bursting point. So I would always ask about the agreed net capacity and the maximum and minimum figures for net capacity. The maximum is the absolute maximum of pupils that can be accommodated from the measured rooms and the minimum is 90% of that figure. The agreed net capacity is normally between the two figures but does give you a check on how near to bursting the school is. Obviously you need to ask whether there have been any new facilities since the net capacity was last measured.

The other issue for me is always class sizes. There tends to be general comments made about small classrooms not being able to take 30 pupils. Well how many and how big are they. If they are above 52 sq metres they were probably built to take 30 pupils but the newish recommended level is 62 sq metres. The honest truth is that the vast majority of classrooms do not meet that new standard. But anything that is 48 and smaller is small for 30 pupils.

The other gem for me is the statement "the headteacher likes the school to have small classes, which is why we keep them to 25" or something similar. Very commendable but actually if the classroom is expected to hold 30 then it should do as far as I am concerned. As a parent we would all like to have a small class which your child is in, but there has to be some reality and if you want a place in the class then you do have to attack the school's case as much as is possible. The panel has to decide where the balance of prejudice lies. If you allow the school to present a case and do not contest it, then clearly the panel has to accept that case at face value and balance that against the case that you present. So always try and reduce the impact of what the school is saying so the prejudice bar is reduced as much as possible.

[HPparent]

After the parent has stated their case I would ask questions to try and clarify what they had said. Made up example:

"so you said that DC needs to go to St Gove's because he broke his leg 2 years ago, why is that? What problems does he experience? What is it about St Gove's that makes you consider it can best meet his needs?"

Basically probing questions such as what, why, how etc. Even if a parent has admitted they just "like it better" as quite a few do, I still try and get reasons out of them to give them a chance.

A good argument backed up by documentary evidence gives the greatest chance of success.

[PanelChair]

I'm not sure there's any value in trying to identify "typical" questions, because each appeal turns on its own facts and so the relevant questions will vary too.

The panel will be trying to test the assertions made on each side - from the school, that it is full and cannot take more pupils and, from the parents, that this is the only school that can meet their child's needs. How the panel does that will depend on the evidence and assertions in front of them.

I agree too with admission and HPparent.

[MillyMollyMama]

Having been the LA representative at appeal panels, (advising the panel) I found the panel members were sympathetic to educational needs expressed by parents. The ones who researched the best place for their child were likely to succeed if space could be found. We regularly had schools taking in 33/34 per class with appeals. In the end they tended to increase the size of the school by building more classrooms! Frequently the schools would argue safety in science labs but panels can ignore this. We obviously argued hard on this point from a safety point of view and other parents at the school became concerned. It is a real dilemma. I also felt some stories from parents were just too remote from the educational issues that the panel were almost certain to refuse a place. I would therefore be very wary of not wanting to go on a coach. Where I worked, children with medical issues were not necessarily put above other appellants if the school they had been allocated could cope. This was usually sorted out in advance anyway. I agree with what others have said.

[HPparent]

Wow MillyMollyMama! That shows the difference between areas. I don't think I have ever been on a panel which allowed an appeal on the basis of "educational need" as the admission criteria around here ultimately comes down to sibling/faith/band/distance.

Ultimately the only ones allowed are where the admissions authority have messed up (rare) or special/social needs have either been ignored or not brought up at the time of admission for various reasons and a good case is made why that particular school is the right one.

I think we also take the school prejudice argument quite seriously and know that if we do allow appeals that will normally take the class over 30 causing problems for the school and bump children on the waiting list further down, as no one else will be admitted until people leave.

I think a lot of people see the appeals process as a second shot at the admissions process while I think of it as more of a safety net to help those who really should have been offered the first time around.

[bunjies]

But HPparent, parents do not get the opportunity to put their case at the first stage of the admissions process. It is only through the appeals process that social/educational/other reasons be raised so pupils who do have a real need to go to the school aren't always picked up first time round.

[HPparent]

In the area I live the schools are all comps and very similar (except for location or faith) that it is difficult to see what educational argument could overcome prejudice. Of course we get people arguing that their child is clever or wants to do a second language which is fine, but if all the schools are non selective and offer potential to do two MFL's, how can that overcome the prejudice argument?

[prh47bridge]

I agree that an argument that the child is clever is unlikely to win an appeal. The parent needs to show that the child will be disadvantaged by not attending the appeal school. To use an example I've used before, if the child is musically talented and the appeal school has a stronger emphasis on music than the allocated school (e.g. the appeal school has a school orchestra and an after school music club but the allocated school does not) that can be the basis of a successful appeal.

In my experience (which encompasses a lot of LAs) most secondary appeals are won on prejudice. If you think appeals are only to correct mistakes you are mistaken (and I hope I never have to face an appeal panel on which you are serving). Appeals are also intended to admit children who have a real need for this school even though they don't qualify under the admission criteria.

In essence you seem to be saying that stage 2 of the decision process is redundant as there is always prejudice to the school which always outweighs prejudice to the child. I hope I have misunderstood you as that is a clear breach of the Appeals Code.

[PanelChair]

Prh47bridge has just said what I was going to say about panels looking more widely, beyond whether the admissions criteria have been correctly applied. If they don't, they are not fulfilling their statutory role.

I agree too that an appeal normally shouldn't be just a second attempt at the admissions process. It is evident to the panel that parents would prefer a school they placed higher on their preference list than the one they've been allocated, but appeals that don't amount to much more than really, really wanting the place or the school being 'better' than the allocated school stand very little chance of success. The arguments need to be about the prejudice to the child.

The one scenario that might be classed as a second attempt, though, is where the school/LEA has no admissions priority for social and medical need and the appeal is the parents' first opportunity to flag up relevant issues and needs.

[HPparent]

phrbridge, I am sorry you have misunderstood me. I did not mean that at all. I was expressing surprise that a panel could find EDUCATIONAL reasons to allow 4 or 5 appeals for a school with PAN of say 30 per class. In my area the schools are so similar that it is difficult to differentiate between them to have any grounds to allow the appeals on educational grounds.

Of course there are reasons for admission which the parent cannot express during the initial application, but I think regarding it as a second round is wrong and misleading to parents, which is why I regard it as a safety net rather than a second go. We have had the parents with letters from MPs or bringing local politicians with them etc which they think is the magic ticket but again it is misleading to allow them to think that.

I personally bend over backwards to find a reason to allow an appeal and give parents every chance to give their reasons, there are occasions when I have talked both my fellow panellists round. Perhaps it is the nature of the area I sit for, but the problem is that most parents do not have a clear reason other than a view that one school is better than another or school A has a reputation for bullying or their child is academic and needs to go to school B rather than school A because they get better results. For one school I think the majority of appeals are because the application criteria are so complex that the parents do not understand why the child in Band 1 got a place but not their child in Band 2 because all their friends are going there. Which we have told the school again and again.

I would agree about the specialism reason, but personally have never heard it argued successfully. We have one school with a specialism of that kind but the appellants have not been able to show their child needs to go there. For example a child might play recorder at primary school but not have applied via the 10% intake specialist route or have any other evidence such as attendance at music clubs or doing grade exams and as a panel we felt it was not the real reason they wanted the school. In that case as every other I would try and help the parent by trying to get the evidence out of them, but unfortunately if there is none there is not a lot I can do.

I am always happy if we can allow an appeal, I don't care if we force the school over PAN and annoy the admissions authority, but at the same time it is a balancing act and we can't allow everyone in who desperately wants to go there.

[NCRegular]

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[sham80]

hpparent a personnaly find this all procedure stressful there are genuine parents who appeal for very good reasons not because 1 school better than other am appealing the school we got is good just as the 1 we appealing for after we sumbited the school applications in oct we got burgled second time in november which affected my boy badly and he to scared to go on bus etc so the other school a can drop him of if this incident didnt happen he was confident took him 3 years to get over it last time an my child broke down wen he heard he have to go on bus etc SORRY RANT OVER JUST BIT STRESSED AT MOMENT DONT MEAN TO UPSET ANYONE

[ToFollowJulie]

sham it is a really stressful procedure but it's there to help you. We went through an appeal and won. I still think of it as one of the hardest things I've been through - the knowledge that you have this one chance to put everything right.

If it helps, I would encourage you to practise a bit before your appeal. I made lists of things to help us to remember to state all the aspects of our case. Something which proved invaluable was a list we had of "three things we cannot leave without saying" which were our 3 strongest points. You do get a chance to state your case and unless you've prepared it can be hard to make the most of it.

I would also say that although the procedure is official and feels very formal - ours was held in a medieval hall and we sat at a table which was bigger than my whole house! - the panel and indeed the school went out of their way to ensure that we felt comfortable. There were 40 appeals but we were never hurried or pushed. It was made very clear that this was our time and our chance to change the decision.

Best of luck with your appeal. It sounds as if you've had a really difficult time.