What happens if they get excluded?(85 Posts)
DD in year 10. Had a call from HOY this week and apparently dd is now on a 'time line' where they are noting down all misdemeanours. All of them. I can only assume they are collecting evidence to support excluding her if her shit behaviour continues. She has already been on internal exclusion this term, and apparently her behaviour since returning to the classroom has been poor. The HOY did make noises on the phone to me this evening about dd being permanently excluded.
What happens if this takes place? Will she be offered a place at any other school in the borough which is willing to take her? A pupil referral unit? What's the normal protocol.
Feel like we're standing on the edge of a precipice here. Will be gutted if dd has to leave the school as it's a very decent place which has done its best to support her. Sad that she's given so little back and seems hell-bent on destruction. :-(
Mini...you are describing my dd to a tee! Honestly, absolutely everything you have said, from the laying in bed watching TV to the disorganisation and lack of homework. The one difference is (and I'm assuming here) is that my dd was adopted from the care system aged 8. She was bright and hardworking at primary school but it all spiralled out of control when she went to high school. From Y9 the hoy was threatening permanent exclusion but as an ex LAC, the SENCO stepped in and we secured a statement for her in Y10. The statement brought in TA support in lessons. She already had in place the most fabulous key worker/learning mentor who in the words of the deputy head 'would walk over glass for her'. Anyway fast forward 2 years and school kept her and she ended up with 6 quality gcses! She is now at college doing a L3 Btec.
My dds problems stem from early trauma primarily, though I'm sure she is genetically vulnerable to issues too. I know this is not the case with your dd. She has an ADHD diagnosis and medication definitely helped.
We are also in inner London.
Please do PM me if you want as school put a lot of other very helpful strategies in place for her too.
slug (and mini!) as well as the PRUs' magic, I imagine some youngsters are just better suited to college environments. I know I was, as per my post upthread.
not so slug! When she was at the private tutorial college, she had one to one lessons with a former head of maths, and developed a wonderful relationship with her, to the point where the teacher took me aside when dd left and told me that dd 'was a very, very special girl', and told dd that she would be happy to foster her if things ever got unbearable at home!
Minifingers, I taught maths. Perhaps she wouldn't be so enamored of me. But seriously, I worked in a very rough area and whatever magic the PRU teachers wrought on their students it seemed to work. They came to me in FE calm, considered and mature. I was always happy to have them in my class no matter what havoc they had caused before they went to the PRU.
What are you doing at home to reinforce what the school is doing?
I ask because my own DD had episodes of disruptive behaviour - not classroom disruption but various other offences that just caused problems.
We were at the school two or three times a week discussing progress but most of all we reinforced the position the school took at home. No detentions = reward. Detentions = phone cut off. Lots and lots of engagement with the wider family about her disruptive behaviour. Daily checking of homework book and homework.
Social isolation at school worked extremely well for DD - she was both bored by it and ashamed of it - might that help? Does your school do that?
Minifingers, have the school put a PSP (pastoral support plan) in place yet?
This should come before a 'timeline', and will need to be put in place if a Permanent exclusion for persistent challenging behaviour is to be upheld.
She is worst in lessons she finds difficult - finds difficult because she hasn't done the work, not because she finds them intrinsically difficult. So that's maths primarily, science and languages. Subjects where her native wit can carry her through - English, drama, sociology - not a problem (although she still won't do homework). She seems to cope very badly with having to try at anything which involves any sort of prolonged or difficult tasks, or anything she can't do easily. She has a massive failure of gumption. It has got me thinking in the past about ADD
That reminds me of my own child (much younger than yours). She has been referred as her concentration isn't good and so she doesn't do the work even though she is very capable. The school suggested ADD. She is fine with things she loves and finds easy but seems to panic when she thinks she might fail at it and so stops working or plays up.
I've been wondering if it might be a self esteem issue. We always told her how smart she was thinking this was the right thing to do, but lately have read that it can make children scared to fail and so they sabotage themselves.
"but it is absolutely not an extension of the existing model of parents being responsible past 16"
Well the other option of course is to chuck her out onto the street at 16. An immature, troubled, self-harming teenage girl.
So sorry to hear your are still going through this Minifingers.
It sounds like a big change is the only thing which might fix things, so maybe getting excluded and sent to a PRU would in the end be the best thing for your DD to 'break the cycle'? Is it worth finding out exactly how it works in your LA so that you're armed with the info before it gets to the point of exclusion?
Legally we are required to support her and keep her in school until she is 18. School leaving age goes up to 17 in 2014, and 18 the year after (I think).
You aren't required to support her, and you aren't required to keep her in school. The school leaving age is not rising. All that is changing is that people aged 16, then 17 have to either be in school, or in a job which has a training element, or in some other approved scheme. Where that is, and how they are financed, is an entirely different matter. She can still claim benefits from 16, and you are not responsible for housing or feeding her, and you are certainly not responsible for ensuring she is in school (or whatever). It is not as yet at all clear what, if any, enforcement there is going to be of this rather ill thought-out scheme, but it is absolutely not an extension of the existing model of parents being responsible past 16.
slug - it's lovely to hear you say that you have found children in PRU's 'a joy to teach'. I'm sure you would say that of my dd, if you were working with her one to one. I have never had a teacher who has had close contact working with her outside of a classroom situation who hasn't found her charming and very bright.
Thank you those of you who are reminding me about second chances - of course this is true, and I will try to keep it in mind.
"If the behaviour is only bad in some lessons, is there an underlying cause perhaps? Either in terms of disliking those subjects"
She is worst in lessons she finds difficult - finds difficult because she hasn't done the work, not because she finds them intrinsically difficult. So that's maths primarily, science and languages. Subjects where her native wit can carry her through - English, drama, sociology - not a problem (although she still won't do homework). She seems to cope very badly with having to try at anything which involves any sort of prolonged or difficult tasks, or anything she can't do easily. She has a massive failure of gumption.
It has got me thinking in the past about ADD, but I presume that this would have been considered by the psychiatrist. Also wonder why it wouldn't have manifested itself in primary. She's spectacularly disorganised, but on the rare occasion she does any work her presentation is beautiful. In maths (when she can be arsed) her working is really excellent - logically and consistently set out in a way that I certainly never managed as a child. Surely this wouldn't be there in the work of a child with ADD?
"OP, you mentioned in response to one comment that you have a son who is autistic and can be disruptive. Has there been any suggestion that your daughter feels that he's getting more attention, and it is disruptive behaviour that gets him it?"
She is jealous of her brother because I am close to him. This is an issue for her, but just one of her issues. He's a good kid.
"Tell her to do whatever she wants but will get no financial support from you or your family and no support in terms of day to day living."
Legally we are required to support her and keep her in school until she is 18. School leaving age goes up to 17 in 2014, and 18 the year after (I think). So we can't disengage completely.
"The other is to consider HE, maybe using something like InterHigh"
When we first took her out of school the plan was to home school her for a while while we looked around for another school. She basically refused to do anything other than watch tv, play games online, or lie in bed (if I denied access to tv and internet) with a pillow over her head. I nearly had a breakdown as I had the local authority on my back asking to see evidence of what we were doing at home. Hence signing her up with a tutorial centre, where she at least engaged with the teachers. I would have been quite happy to have allowed her to do any subjects she wanted at home, create her own projects, follow her own interests. Except she hasn't got any interests other than Facebook, watching TV and fiddling with her hair and nails.
"Have you tried specialist Adolescent counseling OP?"
No. How would I access this?
"I think a solution would be to let her work in a menial job"
If I could let her leave home and work as a chambermaid for a year, believe me, I'd jump at the chance. It was what I did at 17 after dropping out of my A-levels, and it totally pressed the 'reset' button on my attitude to education..... But she is 14. Nobody would have her. And she wouldn't agree to go.
"If she were mine I would either come down on her like a tonne of bricks or completely disengage"
We've had 2 years of this behaviour now, and I have done both of these things, fruitlessly, at different times.... If we come down hard on her she ramps up the aggression and the defiance to a point where it becomes dangerous for everyone in the house. If we disengage she creates situations (like now) where it becomes impossible for us to maintain this disengagement. Like staying out late and not telling us where she is, walking out the house in the middle of the night after a row, playing loud music at midnight on a school night, refusing to go in to school. It's honestly impossible to deal with. You can't disengage when your child is regularly school refusing or putting themselves in danger.
"What do you actually say to her when she says the teachers are incompetent?"
I point out that good behaviour and co-operation is even more vital in lessons where the teacher is struggling, as the learning still has to be done! That she owes it to herself and the other children not to take advantage of weak teachers by creating conflict, and that it's cruel and self-defeating to target teachers who may be finding their work more than they can manage.
Having read the other thread I've only 2 things to say
1. Don't underestimate the PRU. I've taught many children who were in PRUs and they have been without exception, joys to teach. I don't know how they do it but I have nothing but the utmost respect for them.
2. Marriedinwhite has made some perfectly valid points. This is a teenager who knows perfectly well that her behaviour is unacceptable, not some primary school child with an undiagnosed issue. You've been through the CAMHS and psychiatrist route. Now is the time to let the other children thrive without the class drama queen taking all the attention. Schools are incredibly tolerant of the sorts of behaviours that are not accepted in the outside world. If she seems so hell bent on living life to her own script, then perhaps now is the time to let her see the consequences before she decides to take exception to a police officer, kicks off, and ends up with a custodial sentence or a criminal record.
OP, you mentioned in response to one comment that you have a son who is autistic and can be disruptive. Has there been any suggestion that your daughter feels that he's getting more attention, and it is disruptive behaviour that gets him it? Pop psychology, and I'm sure explored in family therapy, I realise.
Its true that what happens at 14 or 15 isn't a reflection on what will happen later on in life. I was quite similar to your dd, a combination of hormones, and a desire to see how far I could challenge authority. They chucked me out in the end. But after a few years of realising I had fucked up, I went back and did my A levels and went on to uni. And I have a pretty responsible job now. This doesn't spell the end for your dd. fwiw I was so angry that my mother supported the school for chucking me out, but in retrospect if she had managed to get them to keep me, my behaviour wouldn't have improved. Hell bent on destruction, sometimes its important to see the results of that before being able to make personal changes.
If she does end up in a PRU, or other alternative provision, its not the end of the world. Really, some children thrive outside of the structure and boundaries of a normal curriculum and school.
Does your borough offer short PRU placements? Sometimes we take students on a fixed term, and sometimes part-time.
Well after reading your previous thread I'd completely disengage.
Tell her to do whatever she wants but will get no financial support from you or your family and no support in terms of day to day living.
Tell her that there are consequences and those are hers - if she wants to fuck her life up she can go right ahead but you are past caring and need to get on with your life without having to deal with the day to day drama which she is inflicting on the rest of you.
Go and get some counselling for you and your family without her to deal with feelings of failure and what to do if she starts to reach out to you but really I think it gets to the stage where you are just constantly bashing your head against the wall whilst the child goes on merrily doing what they want to do.
I would never have disrupted her education in the first place if I hadn't also been very dissatisfied with the school's response to dd failing to complete any work in class or at home for over a year?????
What was their response?
What was your response?
Sounds more behavioural than MH issue - Your best bet is contacting CAMHS and asking them about parenting groups that you could attend but I doubt from what you are saying on here she fulfils the criteria for a referral.
What have you tried to tried to get her to take responsibility for her behaviour?
Minifingers, I hope you don't mind me linking to your other thread in Chat... here.
It gives some more information as to which avenues of support have already been tried.
If the behaviour is only bad in some lessons, is there an underlying cause perhaps? Either in terms of disliking those subjects, masking embarrassment at finding them too difficult or simply feeling overwhelmed by the end of the day so stressing out after lunch but being O.K before?
There may not be a named MH issue or additional need identified but something is going on. If DD is reluctant to talk about it, defiant and blames individual teachers, it may be that she is really struggling with a few subjects and trying to cover this by acting out? If she has missed a lot of those lessons due to earlier bad behaviour, she may also have fallen behind and be even more embarrassed / angry / defiant about them now? Or she may be subject to hostility in some classes (the other children being told Year 10 is the pinnacle of their very existence may be getting stressed about how important it is and less tolerant of DD or alternatively enjoy the spectacle and goad her). Again she may be embarrassed to admit this.
Maybe keeping a diary of which lessons, what times of day and what triggers come before any particularly bad episodes might give you a clue as to what is going on? Hopefully the HOY will have some suggestions though about what can happen next.
I would suggest two things: first a referral to CAMHS or other youth counselling. I wonder if your DD really knows what she thinks or feels. There may even be an undiagnosed SN/SEN.
The other is to consider HE, maybe using something like InterHigh (which it is possible to get the LA to pay for if a pupil is in danger of exclusion).
Thanks for your reports.
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