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What happens if they get excluded?

(85 Posts)
Minifingers Mon 23-Sep-13 19:54:55

DD in year 10. Had a call from HOY this week and apparently dd is now on a 'time line' where they are noting down all misdemeanours. All of them. I can only assume they are collecting evidence to support excluding her if her shit behaviour continues. She has already been on internal exclusion this term, and apparently her behaviour since returning to the classroom has been poor. The HOY did make noises on the phone to me this evening about dd being permanently excluded.

What happens if this takes place? Will she be offered a place at any other school in the borough which is willing to take her? A pupil referral unit? What's the normal protocol.

Feel like we're standing on the edge of a precipice here. Will be gutted if dd has to leave the school as it's a very decent place which has done its best to support her. Sad that she's given so little back and seems hell-bent on destruction. :-(

Minifingers Tue 24-Sep-13 06:47:48

Married - You seem to be keen to pin the blame for your dd's anorexia on the children who disrupted her lessons at her comprehensive and maybe that's why you're being so hateful and illogical.

It's good you have got out of the state sector.

The state sector has to cater for the full spectrum of children with the full spectrum of needs. You know, the children who are having emotional and behavioural difficulties, children whose behaviour may be linked to abuse at home, undiagnosed learning difficulties (quite a few of those in secondary), or autistic spectrum disorders. It's a bit like life you know. You can't filter out everyone who makes life uncomfortable for other people.

I have a son with autism who has been educated in mainstream, very successfully so far, although sometimes he can be disruptive. No doubt he has annoyed his fellow pupils at times and disrupted their learning on occasion. No doubt you'd like to see him in a 'special school' and my dd in a... well, who knows. I'm sure there's a scrap heap somewhere you'd like to see her on. Somewhere far away from 'normal' children.

"I'm not going to nakedly sympathise with you - girls like your daughter made my daughter's life a total misery for two years"

Did these girls bully your dd?

Or did your dd develop psychiatric problems because of regular low level disruption in her lessons which was not directed at her? I suspect you're exaggerating to prove your point. I'd be amazed that a top performing comprehensive would tolerate a small group of children regularly and systematically disrupting the learning environment to the point that other children became completely emotionally unable to function. Especially in its top sets (I presume your dd is high achieving) It's irritating to other children, boring and frustrating. But to trigger an eating disorder? In a child who's not being actually bullied or targeted?

You seem to want to believe my dd is a bully, and that I don't care about the impact of her behaviour of others. Neither of these things is true. You just have your own weird little agenda arising from your own struggles with your dd. Perhaps you'd like to take it off my thread?

friday16 Tue 24-Sep-13 07:19:18

Tom Bennett (who also blogs as "The Behaviour Guru") writes on this topic

"But the other kids have no less right to me; they deserve attention just as much, and yet bad behaviour in school forces us to treat them like children of a lesser God. It's no wonder that many kids think, 'Hang on, if I want attention, I should act up, like the naughty kids.' It's why we learn the names of the wriggles and the shouters long before we know who the quiet, hard working kids are. It's a tragedy, and it is it's own injustice. That's why schools need or make behaviour such a priority, as an issue of social justice, not just utility."

cory Tue 24-Sep-13 07:41:35

One thing that issues very clearly from married's posts - apart from the fact that she assumes on very flimsy grounds the OP's dd is a bully because the disruptive children in her dd's school were bullies- is that it doesn't matter what happens to the children in the rough school, as long as the children in the naice school are protected from all disturbance.

Even assuming that the OPs dd were a bully- and we have seen absolutely no evidence of that- why do the children in the new school deserve that more than the children in the other school? Clearly because they are a "rough" school, so married doesn't identify with them. hmm

Hang in there, Minifingers. It seems a horrible situation but you are working with the school, they are working with you, neither of you want this, it may be that this latest escalating of the situation will actually lead to more and better intervention.

marriedinwhiteisback Tue 24-Sep-13 07:42:09

Thank you friday16 you have summed up exactly what I want to convey taking out all the emotion.

Is it not blindingly obvious that the system has gone too far and that the education of the majority needs to be protected from the ill behaved, trouble making minority.

tiggytape Tue 24-Sep-13 07:42:39

The state sector has to cater for the full spectrum of children with the full spectrum of needs.

Up to a point. There is a point beyond which they cannot and will not cope and have indicated to you that you are rapidly approaching this point.

You have said what you don't want, but realistically, what is it that you do want at this stage? You say the school are supportive. This doesn't seem to have resolved things though. They have been pretty lenient with some things that they could have escalated to remove her much sooner had they so wished. What do you think they can do now to make this better for her and for the rest of her class (genuine question not a criticism)?

You say a move at this stage would be awful. In many way I agree and for most children a Year 10 move would be unthinkable. But what is the alternative if she stays or if she is not allowed to stay and is excluded? Are you hoping the threat of it will be enought to turn things around? Would you be happier about a move if it wasn't to a mixed school but to a unit or another school of your choosing?

Minifingers Tue 24-Sep-13 07:46:22

My dd isn't looking for attention. She got plenty of that before she started behaving badly. Teachers always remembered her because she was bright, co-operative and full of fun. Teachers used to constantly emphasise was a great chill she was to have in class - how friendly and full of ideas.

I really hate people trying to over simplify the issue of disruption. There can be a massive number of reasons why a child becomes difficult to manage in the classroom. In dd's case none if us can get to the bottom of it and we're left saying that she's just having an unusually shit ride through adolescence, and dragging her family with her.

marriedinwhiteisback Tue 24-Sep-13 07:46:42

I have not once mentioned the word bully - I have mentioned bad behaviour and disruption - that is what was being suffered on a daily basis.

friday16 Tue 24-Sep-13 07:53:36

I really hate people trying to over simplify the issue of disruption. There can be a massive number of reasons why a child becomes difficult to manage in the classroom.

For the other people in the classroom, the reason is irrelevant; it's the disruption that is the problem.

IShouldNotBeHere Tue 24-Sep-13 07:57:35

When you talk to your daughter what does she say about the situation and reason for it?

You've said a lot, but i haven't seen your daughters thoughts mentioned at all, only your opinion.

I assume you do talk about it and you do listen to her?

Minifingers Tue 24-Sep-13 07:58:49

"I have not once mentioned the word bully - I have mentioned bad behaviour and disruption - that is what was being suffered on a daily basis."

Disruption which was obviously not bad enough to stop the majority of children achieving highly, as you note.

Morgause Tue 24-Sep-13 08:01:58

There is a whole other thread to be created about the effect disruptive children have on the rest of the class. I think most parents know how awful that can be for their DCs.

But this thread was created by a mother asking for some support in dealing with her child. She doesn't need people jumping on her telling her how awful her daughter is.

Mini, does your daughter have any idea why she cannot cope with school? I was a perfect child until secondary school when I did create a certain amount of chaos through my adolescence but I did calm down. My Dad was called to the school a couple of times. I know why I behaved as I did. I hated the regimentation of my school and the lack of flexibility or any outlet for creativity of the kind I was interested in. I hated the school dictating everything I wore. So I showed it by acting out.

I'm semi retired now but spent a lot of my teaching career working with children with challenging behaviour in a school created for them. There is no one answer but having adults listen to how they feel helps a lot. Maybe your daughter would benefit. Most of them we managed to ease back into mainstream but I like to think we also helped those who could never make the change.

I hope you and your daughter's school find a resolution. I hope she "sees the light" as I did and realises the person she is hurting most is herself. I hope she discovers why she cannot control herself.


ll31 Tue 24-Sep-13 08:02:29

Have some sympathy with marriedinetc views. Your dd op, by being so disruptive in class is affecting other girls education and you seem to minimise this.

I've no advice, sorry, but do feel for you and your dd, but also for the girls whose education she's being allowed disrupt.

Soditall Tue 24-Sep-13 08:06:16

Mini could it be because of her bad experiences at her last school?She could be finding it difficult to let go of that,so she could have gone to this new school with very low expectations and an assumption that she wouldn't be there for long.

Although from what you've said she's had no problems(ie being bullied ect)her emotional and mental state could still be set at what it was when she was going through all the shit at her last school.

Have the school offered any form of help in the way of counseling?

Minifingers Tue 24-Sep-13 08:06:55

"When you talk to your daughter what does she say about the situation and reason for it?"

She blames everyone else for the problems she is encountering.

She says 'I'm not taking drugs or having sex. I'm really not that bad'.

She says the teachers are incompetent.

If you ask her any really challenging question like: "what are your thoughts about your GCSE's - are you worried about failing?" she'll ignore you, walk away or tell you to leave her alone.

"I assume you do talk about it and you do listen to her?"

What an insulting question. sad

"For the other people in the classroom, the reason is irrelevant; it's the disruption that is the problem."

Well maybe you'd like to start another thread for those people whose children are struggling because of disruptive behaviour in their classes, rather than discussing it in the context of my OP. I know my dd's behaviour is disrupting the education of the other children at her school. I'm tormented by this knowledge. As I said, I was a teacher and have had to deal with children like dd and know how upsetting and unfair it is from other children's point of view it is. I would cut my right fucking arm off if I thought it would improve her behaviour and I have done everything I can, as has DH and my wider family to address the issue and work with the school.

It just seems there are people here who are motivated to rub salt into my wounds by airing their grievances about the impact of disruptive children's behaviour on their own precious dc's. And I'd say to you - seriously - fuck the fuck off. This is not the place for it.

Minifingers Tue 24-Sep-13 08:08:31

"and you seem to minimise this".

I'm not minimising it.

Really I'm not.


IShouldNotBeHere Tue 24-Sep-13 08:12:41

That wasn't meant in an insulting way! I asked if you talk to her because you hadn't yet mentioned a single thing about what its like from her point of view. I assumed you did but who are we to know if you don't say.

Are you this spikey in real life? You're taking offense to everything!

sandyballs Tue 24-Sep-13 08:19:54

Marriedinwhite, why do you always, always wade into these discussions with the same old tone and same old story. It's fecking unhelpful to say the least and very smug.

The simple fact that you fail to see is that it isn't always down to the parents that a kid plays up at school. You have been lucky with your two, personality comes into just as much as upbringing. I know you'll disagree as you did on a thread of mine when I was in despair about my DD.

Kids can come from a lovely supportive family, with boundaries and discipline and still go off the rails. I have twin DDs, one of whom is doing exceptionally well at school and wouldn't dream of mucking about, her sister, well she's a different kettle of fish, but they have both been brought up in exactly the same way, how do you explain that then?

Please don't post on these threads unless you have something constructive and helpful to add, it just adds to the OPs anguish.

enjolraslove Tue 24-Sep-13 08:24:15

So on a practical level- how close is she to perm excl? How many fixed terms has she had?
Does she acknowledge some of the sanctions as reasonable? Are there any teachers at all she likes/respects?

tiggytape Tue 24-Sep-13 08:24:43

You still haven't said what you want as a final outcome or what you expect the school to do.

It seems like you are going round in circles a bit with DD too. It must be hugely frustrating to see her wasting her chances and unable to get out of this.

What does she want to happen next? The school are rightly thinking about balancing support for DD with looking after the interests of the others in an important GCSE year but what does she think they should do? Would she be happy if they forced her to leave - is this why she is acting up more since her last punishment? I know you rate the school but she doesn't sound like she wants to be there at all. If she does want to stay, what do you want them to do to ensure this can happen? What do you think they haven't tried that might work?

JenaiMorris Tue 24-Sep-13 08:38:29

mini's duty here is to her daughter. If her daughter's issues can be resolved, then the impact on other pupils will be be a positive one.

I cannot see any value in banging on about the harm her behaviour is causing other students here, particularly as the OP and her daughter have already experienced this from the other side, thus prompting the move to her current school.

I don't really have any advice OP, other than to suggest that not all mixed schools are rife with sexual harassment (I doubt any are free of it either, sadly) and not to write co-ed off entirely, particularly as the atmosphere in her girls school doesn't seem to be working for your daughter now.

Mrscupcake23 Tue 24-Sep-13 08:42:07

I feel for you op. Some children do this sort of thing for no reason. If she does go into PRU it won't be the end of the world she might be better suited.

Married in white stop being unhelpful you would not like people judging your daughter. Sounds like she has problems too. So thought you would be the last to judge .

ImTooHecsyForYourParty Tue 24-Sep-13 08:49:01

Have you been able to access any outside support for her? Counselling or youth worker or similar? Would the school help you to access this as part of supporting her?

JenaiMorris Tue 24-Sep-13 08:53:42

Oh and another thing - which isn't to say that you needn't worry about the here, now and immediate future - some of us work to different timetables. I left school the moment I turned 16 (at the start of what is now called Y11, so illegally, not that anyone bothered to chase it up), with not a GCSE to my name.

I was never disruptive in class, but I was very badly behaved - telling the dep head to fuck off, barely attending. I hated school. Utterly hated it. I hated being leapt on the moment I set foot in the grounds for wearing socks over my tights in winter, dozens of stupid, petty rules. Now, I look back and realise that I was a bloody nightmare and the teachers weren't all bad, but in my hormone ridden, radical, angry little head school was oppressive and stifling. It didn't suit me at all.

I was no trouble at all at work (started part time at 14, full time as soon as I decided never to go to school again). Studied a bit part time, went to uni after an access course at 21. I'm a professional in a pretty serious job, having been out of work probably 3 months in total over 25 years. I'm also fairly happy!

So yes, work with school and your daughter but please don't despair too much flowers

ImTooHecsyForYourParty Tue 24-Sep-13 08:56:15

Marriedinwhite - are you grabbing hold of the OP because you never had the chance to let out your (justifiable) anger at the parents of the girls who actually did this to your daughter? Your daughter has clearly gone through hell (I understand. I was bullied at school so badly that I tried to kill myself and eventually I was so unwell I ended up in MHU) but this child is not them. This parent is not the parent of one of those children and although I understand that you're angry about what those other children did to your daughter, it's really unfair to use this thread and this OP to get all that out.

I assume that's what you're doing. Otherwise you are just choosing to kick the OP and from your other posts over time, I don't think you're that sort of person.

tethersend Tue 24-Sep-13 08:57:56

At this stage, the school need to show that they have tried everything they can to support her. Many schools start to talk about permanent exclusion before they have done this, which is unfair as the guidance specifically prohibits schools talking of permanent exclusion as a means to encourage parents to change schools.

Has she had/is she on a Pastoral Support Plan? This is the very least I would expect if permanent exclusion is being mentioned.

Does she have a learning mentor or other key person in school?

Is she on the code of practice? At what stage?

Has she been seen by the EP?

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