Part time teachers - would you expect to be paid for this?

[reastie]

Sorry if this is slightly the wrong place to post it, but would really appreciate the opinion of part time teachers on this. I'm trying to organise going on an INSET run by an exam board on marking controlled assessment. It's 1:30 - 3:30 on my afternoon off. My HoD told me I wouldn't get paid for this as the other options for the course are after school and if I went on it after school I wouldn't get any extra money for it (he hadn't checked with anyone on this though). I nodded at the time not thinking it through and that sounded fair the way he put it. He has emailed the Dept head about me going on the course in my own time (ie unpaid) so now it's in the system that I'm going to go on it unpaid. I don't want to make a fuss but at the same time I'm giving up my afternoon off for this course, it does seem unfair to me that it is unpaid (I probably feel a bit gritted teeth as I do so much extra to my hours every week preparing etc lessons). Thinking logically - you are expected as the norm to do things after school sometimes but if you would do a course during school holidays or week ends as a full timer surely you'd get more pay for that time? I have a young DC so am having to arrange extra childcare for her (although it's free as it's DM) and am missing quality time with her that I would usually have, so it's not like I've got nothing better to do.

So, is this something that I would be expected to do for free or does it sound like it's something that I should be paid for (or at least would be reasonable to be paid for)? I'd just like some teachers opinions on this really. I am in a union but I'd like a moral response as to whether I would look money grabbing for requesting to be paid for it or if this would be normal. Also, now my HoD has said I will do it in my own time should I go back to my HoD to say I'd like to see if I can be paid (even though he said I shouldn't bother probably as he has to do a similar course after school and not get any extra money so would resent me getting more but he gets loads more money than me ) or should I just go above him (and hope he doesn't mind when he finds out)?

[annbenoli]

could you not be given time off in lieu. I am a part time teacher and it is a minefield. Do you normally attend staff meetings? If so could you miss some for them to make up the time to you ? As a part timer you are only expected to complete a fair proportion of directed time so if you work 3 days you should attend 2/3rds of staff meetings. Training - you have a right to training and they have an obligation to provide this on your working days. However, in the case of training by an external provider, as this is, you are not obligated to attend outside of your working days. If you decide to then any payment or time off in lieu is at the discretion of the head teacher. I would ask for time in lieu i think and then you would get the quality time with your little one back.

[AThingInYourLife]

No way would I attend training without pay (or TOIL), even if it was on after school.

Teaching is a job, not a hobby.

I'm not a teacher any more.

[knackeredmother]

If the full timers get paid for it then you should too.
However, I work part time (not teacher) and am expected to do so much in my own time I am going full time soon. E.g I attend training days, induction days, appraisals etc all on my days off if thats when they happen to be. I don't get time owing or pay. I am a doctor and it seems to be the culture in medicine. Nurses who work for the same trust with the same HR would generally get time owing, totally culture dependent. So I guess what I'm saying is what is the culture where you work?

[reastie]

Yes, I just wondered if I was looking like I was unreasonable thinking/expecting I should be paid for working on my afternoon off. FWIW the staff meetings are on my day off and I do not attend (but would attend all of them should I work on that day as I have done in the past) but I do attend INSET days (3 a year) even though they fall on my day off and I don't get paid. I also attend all parents evenings which are also on my day off. I don't mind these things too much, but I do this as well as attend carol services/week end parents social events etc all also unpaid. I also work alot more hours than my teaching. I know teaching is a vocation and I do it for the love of the job not just the money. Sometimes it just feels like enough is enough and I can't keep giving my time for no extra IYKWIM.

[reastie]

How does TOIL work then? DO I pick an afternoon to have off and leave cover for groups I teach? Because, if that's the case, it's not exactly time off given the time I'll spend planning and marking the cover I've set!

[Tinuviel]

If it is during the school day and on a day you don't normally work, teachers' pay and conditions state quite clearly that they have to be paid for it.

And re meetings etc, if they are on a day you don't normally work, they cannot insist that you attend them and if you do attend them, they need to pay you for your time.

[reastie]

Tin it's not on my day off, it's on my afternoon off, and should have said earlier, it's a private school so they have alot more flexibility in being able to do what they like

[OneMoreMum]

Tricky one, if full-time members of staff would be going in their (paid) working day then I think you should get paid / time off in lieu. If full-time members of staff would be expected to attend the evening course (ie in their own time) then although not exactly fair at least it's equally unfair, IYSWIM.

Parents evenings are presumably part of a teacher's contract, ditto INSET days whether they fall on your day off or not, although if you worked only 1 day a week (for example) I don't think it would be fair to expect you to attend as many INSET days as full-time staff.

I've been part-time for years (not a teacher) and I find going the extra mile is usually appreciated and clock-watching / sticking to your hours, when lots of full-timers work way beyond theirs, does you no favours career-wise. It might not strictly be fair but unfortunately seems to be part of the price we have to pay for the advantages of having that extra family / me time.

[Kez100]

I thought it was all about directed time. Is this directed time? If it is then surely it should either be included in the hours you are currently paid for or you get paid on top.

[reastie]

Thanks onemore and kez . I really don't want to come across as the type to clock watch/do the absolute minimum as that's not me. I was thinking that I work just under 2 days a week, so an afternoon extra work is the equivalent to 1/4 of my working week. I don't think a full timer would be expected to do extra work for 1/4 of their working week (ie over a day) in addition to their usual work and get no extra payment for going on a course.

I have spoken to DH, he thinks I should just put up with it this time in the hopes it shows what a fabulous person I am to them . I think I feel the most griped as if I'm honest I think if I went to the senior management they would say I could be paid for it, but since my head of dept has said I shouldn't (as he doesn't apparently get extra for an afterschool session but he's paid alot more comparably and is a dept head getting more directed time than me and works full time ) ask and has said to senior management I will do the course for free I feel in a tricky situation about whether to go over his head and as if I can be paid despite him saying I will do it unpaid or just grinning and bearing it. It sounds a bit petty I realise, I just feel a bit down at how much extra time and work I put into my job but there's always more wanted of me.

[OneMoreMum]

I think your DH may be right, but make sure that the senior management know about it so you can pick up brownie points for your commitment which may pay dividends in the future.

I get the feeling this on its own wouldn't be that big a deal but its the accumulation of all the 'over and above the call of duty' stuff that's beginning to grate. Maybe you need to think through all the extra work you do versus a full-time teacher and see if it's relatively proportionate or way out of line, and if way out maybe bring it up at your next appraisal and request a bit more help / paid non-teaching time or whatever?

[noblegiraffe]

I'm part time and I'd probably just suck it up because it's only a few hours and a one off, and actually useful. I already get a pretty shoddy deal as a part timer though because although I'm 0.6 I don't actually get any full days off. They don't look particularly kindly on part timers at my school and basically I'm reliant on school's goodwill to give me decent blocks of time off on my timetable and not take the piss in other ways, so keeping my head down and not kicking up a stink over the matter of a couple of hours would probably be the best way forward for me.

[reastie]

Thanks. I think I was just a bit annoyed about it yesterday, onemore you've hit the nail on the head there - if it was just this in isolation I'd have no problem, it's more a build up of little things equating to alot of extra work over a long period. Noble my timetable used to be like that - I've had years where one day a week I only had to go to work to teach for one hour - it was ridiculous!

[Pozzled]

How are your management when you need any flexibility yourself? If it were me, I'd go in unpaid, but I know that the school will in turn accommodate me if I had to get in a little late one day due to childcare issues or whatever. Both sides appreciate this.

However, if I felt that the school were constantly taking without giving anything in return, or recognising what I was doing, I'd feel very differently. In that case, I'd probably ask for pay or toil.

[exoticfruits]

You should get paid. I found that often there wasn't the money and the Head would tell me that unfortunately I couldn't get paid. I then made a decision and if it was useful to me I went, but if it wasn't I didn't.
It is one of the downsides of part time.

[exoticfruits]

I agree with Pozzled.

[camptownraces]

OP - don't the Exam Boards pay your school actual money to provide a supply teacher for the time you are on their course? (they certainly used to do that). If so, your school will get half a day's supply money to pay you.

Your HoD probably won't know the answer to this, since he won't deal with a budget for supply. ASK whoever deals with that it your school whether they claim for this from the Board.

[reastie]

No, that's only the case for when you go to the exam board to train to be an examination marker etc, and our school won't get supplies in unless you will be absent more than a week. I agree that it probably wasn't HoDs call to say I wouldn't get paid, which is why I feel a bit annoyed but also bad if I go over his head to try to get paid for it.

[cece]

I work part time in a primary school so it may be a bit different.

I tend to only choose courses that run during my work days!

Or if unavoidable I have been given time off in lieu if had to attend things in my own time.

I occasionally get paid extra for doing extra things but that isn't very often...

INSET days I do pro rata. So as I work 1 and half days per week I attend 1 and half INSET days. If I go to any extras I negotiate time off in lieu or to get paid.

[christinecagney]

Hmm, bit tricky. I agree with Pozzled and your DH generally.

I am a HT and I pretty much always pay people for any extra time they give however, a bit of give and take on both sides is always appreciated. E.g person agrees to do an afternoon extra unpaid in return for some flexibility later in the year.

If you have a good relationship with your HT and are not a clock watcher usually and have a good track record as a team player etc, then I think it's really fine to ask to be paid esp. If you mention your childcare costs. As a boss I really wouldn't want someone to be out of pocket, that's unreasonable.

[greyvix]

I think that, as you would not be paid for twilight training, you shouldn't be paid for doing a course on your day off. However, you should claim expenses for attending the course, including childcare.
You should enquire about procedures in your school, however. I am HoD and would have enquired on your behalf if it was me. It is not necessarily the head, but the person in charge of CPD who would be the best person to ask.

[reastie]

Thanks grey that's tbh what I would have expected too (esp given HoD is also my union rep).

christine it's interesting to hear from a HT perspective and I agree a bit of flexibility each way is good.

[marriedinwhite]

What does your contract say?

Are you doing the course because you have asked to do it and it is optional or do you have to do it and have your employers asked you to do it. If the latter you should expect to be paid (perhaps a meeting rate because you will have no prep or marking attached to the time) or to receive time in lieu.

[PatTheHammer]

I'm a part-time teacher and I have done exactly what has been mentioned previously, I went on the course (it was all day and I was only paid to work the morning) but I asked if they would cover the cost of the extra childcare as expenses. They were happy to do this and I think this is entirely reasonable.

My old union rep always used to say that if you are P/T then effectively you could be spending the rest of your time working at another job for all they knew. Obviously, this clearly doesn't apply for the vast majority of P/T teachers but I thought it was an interesting way of looking at when management are asking (or in some cases demanding) that you are to do some directed time on days/mornings when you would not normally be employed.

[HeartsTrumpDiamonds]

If you are in an independent school, what does your contract say?

In our school we don't pay anyone (full time or part time) for out-of-hours training, parents' evenings, attendance at Open Day (which is a Saturday), attendance at the Christmas Fair and so on. The only exception is the kitchen staff who are on hourly wages. All the aforementioned fall under the scope of wording in the contract along the lines of "....and other such duties as are reasonably determined by the Headteacher from time to time in the discharge of your responsibilities..." blah blah.

Who originally drew up your contract? In an independent school I'm assuming the bursar - could you have a quiet off-the-record chat with her or him? Find out what actually happens with the full-timers and other part-timers in this situation? They will know because they will have been the ones to adjust the payroll!