secondary application preferences - different tactics - advice appreciated

[shouldbeironing]

Friend and I have DC at same primary, live in same (small) street. There are 4 secondary schools that we have any realistic prospect for: otherwise would have to go long distance and unlikely to get in to any decent distant schools.
One of the four "local" schools is faith and so is effectively a non-runner though we could put it on our list even if we would never get in.

That leaves schools A, B and C.

School A: nearest school. Likely to get in if we put it down. Is okay.
School B: next nearest school but not as near as A. Very very oversubscribed. Would be our first preference. Also most children from our primary school would go there as our primary school is close to it. My friend and I dont live in the "usual" catchment for the primary. So it seems as if all the children we know will be going there. We probably have a 50% chance of getting in.
School C: furthest "local" school and undersubscribed - so we would be likely to get this one if we failed to get A or B.

So I have put in my form with school B first, then the faith school , then school A and lastly school C.

My friend refuses to consider anything but school B so has only put that one down. She plans to appeal if she doesnt get in. I have tried to get her to put school A as a back-up but her reasoning is that if she puts it down then it will hurt her chances of getting school B on appeal. She plans to go to appeal to say only school B is suitable for her DD mostly for social/emotional reasons (separation from friends etc). She knows that people who appealed last year on this basis were successful.
She says if she puts school A on the list they will say "well you have got one of your preferences" and she thinks it will undermine her arguments when appealing for school B.

I am planning to at least appeal if we dont get school B myself - on the same basis. But thought should have my other preferences as backup. But i can see my friend's reasoning - by putting your backup option on the form, you imply that it is acceptable so you undermine your appeal for your first preference.
I just dont know what would be the best tactics?

Sorry if it all sounds complicated! Any advice appreciated.

[admission]

Your friend's reasoning is faulty and you are doing exactly what is right to have the best possible chance of getting the school you would really like but also the ones that you would be prepared to accept.
I can tell you that categorically no appeal panel member should use the arguement that your friend is putting forward. As a panel we are not allowed to know what other schools have been appealed for or where any appealant stands on a waiting list, so that all decisions are made on the weight of the evidence submitted not what school they have been allocated.
The appeal process is in two parts. The first is where the admission authority argue that there would be prejudice to the school and the current students to admit any more pupils. Quite often that is the case. In the second part however you as the appealant are arguing that there will be prejudice to your child that is actually greater than the prejudice to the school and defining that prejudice. If the pupils last year were admitted on the basis of social/ emotional reasons then this is actually not a very good reason and normally would be considered not to confer a high level of prejudice. That implies that either the level of prejudice to the school is very low or that the panel were very generous in their interpretation of the level of prejudice. The other alternative is that the cases were not won on the social / emotional arguement, which would of course leave your friend with no appeal worth a damn. Is she absolutely sure that was the reason that the appeals were upheld?
If your friend is really unlucky she will not get school B on initial allocation, schools A, C and the faith school will be full and she will be allocated some really awful school a long way away. By the same arguement that she is putting forward the panel should reject her appeal for school B as she has a school place and leave her with a school they really do not want in comparison to A or C. She needs to put down schools A and C as protection.

[prh47bridge]

Agree with the other posters. I would also add that putting school A down as backup will make no difference to her chances of getting a place at school B in the intial allocations.

[Theas18]

You friend is playing a dangerous game. If she qualifies for 1st choice then great but if she doesn't she will be placed at sink school Z miles away as your choices A nd C will be filled by people who expressed some sort of preference for them. Appeals will be unlikely to succeed unless there is a breach of protocol that can be proved.

[shouldbeironing]

Thanks for your advice. This is also the way I see it and I couldnt face the risk ending up with a distant school and failing on appeal.

I spoke to my friend about this last week and to be honest she got quite upset with me. She is absolutely determined and has already put her form in. Friend and I met one mum who got her DS in last year on appeal. She had coffee with a group of us a while ago (one of those coffee mornings where they want you to buy makeup and stuff) and was telling us all about the appeal which she had just been through and found out pretty much straight away she was successful. She lives even further away than us.

She said she got her GP and the primary teachers and school psychologist to write letters saying her DS was stressed and unable to sleep and suffering at school etc because he was so upset about being placed in this distant "sink" school 10 miles away where he would have to get 2 buses and all his friends etc were in School B and could walk to school.

So the fact he had been allocated this really distant bad school did sort of play a part in this appeal if you see what I mean. If he had been allocated school A which is close by and not so bad (even though not with his friends) then maybe he might not have won that appeal as his argument about stress etc might not have been so convincing.

So my friend is intending to go down the same argument. She has heard it "from the horses mouth" and this other mum has convinced her that this is the way to go and is better tactics. Personally I just couldnt cope with taking that risk. I am just hoping we both get in without having to go to appeal. If we do both end up appealing then it will be really difficult if one of us gets in and the other doesnt. My DH agrees with what we have put on our form but says my friend has a different attitude to risk to me and sometimes taking a risk can pay off.

[prh47bridge]

The mother concerned was very lucky in my view. Most appeal panels would not have been taken in. They should not even have considered whether or not the allocated school is a bad school. The fact that the boy was allegedly upset and stressed about being allocated this school is also something they should have ignored as it does suggest that he would have suffered any long term damage. If the journey would take an unreasonable time (significantly over an hour each way) that might have given a case but that is all. If I went into an appeal with a case like that I would expect to lose.

[drivinmecrazy]

This whole applications process is driving me insane. Our choices are 2 grammars equal distance apart (although no gaurantees with 11+ being so competitive in our area) third choice is a really good comp for which we are (just) i catchment for but only qualify for admissions criteria 5. At open evening I spoke to local admissions lady who said that last year they only got half way through the criteria 5 list before they were full. This has scared the crap out of me because 2 other local schools are utterly useless. Only glimmer of hope we have is that admissions lady told us that according to GP lists there are fewer children this year of this age than last.
I really hadnt appreciated the angst we would go through just trying to secure a decent education for DD1. It is a horrid process leaving so much uncertaity for us and our children until we find out in March if we will have to fight for a decent place Really should not be such a lottery with our childrens future.
Sadly DH and I really believe if we had of known this 11 years ago we probably would not have had DD2 to enable us to afford putting 1 child through private education

[shouldbeironing]

I have also been told there are fewer children this year - which gives me hope. On the other hand I have heard that there are more people who would have gone private but are unable to afford it due to the economy so are also trying to get into the good state schools.

[prh47bridge]

Just noticed in my last post - "does suggest" should be "does NOT suggest"! Oops!

[admission]

I would expect that the letters that were written all started with Mrs ZX tells me that ...... These "expert witnesses" all know that actually that kind of letter will in effect be ignored by any appeal panel. We are told to ignore it because in effect what is written is heresay, it is not specifics that the consultant etc is making decisions on. The reason that the appeal was successful is almost certainly that the panel thought that 10 miles was too long for a daily commute to school using 2 buses. Not a strong case but the panel were obviously feeling generous on the day. If the child had been in school A I would agree with your assessment that the appeal would not have been successful.
You have pointed out the dangers and regretably you can do no more if they are going to onsist on relying on what happened at an appeal last year.

[shouldbeironing]

Interesting what you say admission - as it sort of confirms that despite what people say, taking the higher risk could in fact pay off. Of course it could also backfire. But if you are right about the buses etc then if last year's mum had played safe by putting school A down as a preference, then she might never have won that appeal and got the school she wanted.

I can understand my friend's point of view - as my DH says, it depends on what sort of risk you are willing to take. I guess i will find it a bit galling if she goes down that route and gets in to our 1st choice and we dont because we have been given our backup option. I hope it doesnt come to that.

Do the appeals panel look at previous cases when they make their decisions? Does one appeal sort of set a precedent for future appeals? Would the panel be likely to be the same people?

[prh47bridge]

Appeal panels are not bound by precedents and don't generally look at them. The fact that one panel has said this journey is too far does not mean another panel has to come to the same decision.

The panel must be independent. That tends to get undermined if the same panel is used repeatedly. The panel this year should therefore be different from last year. So it is quite possible that this year's panel would have rejected that appeal. Indeed, it is quite possible that last year's panel would have rejected that appeal on a different day.

[shouldbeironing]

I am sure you are right and I certainly feel happier with the backup option. I dont think I could take the stress otherwise.
I am not sure I understand about waiting lists - if she doesnt put school A (our nearest school) down as a backup, is she still allowed to go on the waiting list for school A in March? i.e can you join the waiting list even if it wasnt originally one of your preferences? If you can, then it is less risky as she does live reasonably close to school A so would probably get in via the waiting list if she joined it in March. As you say there are always some places come up that way.

[prh47bridge]

You can go on the waiting list for schools that weren't your original preferences. So yes, she can go on the waiting list for school A in March.

[shouldbeironing]

Well that does give her more options if it comes to it. Thanks for all the info. Fingers crossed we get the places we wanted and dont have to come back for advice in March....

[mossy99]

Quest Academy, Selsdon, any thoughts?

[mossy99]

Sorry I meant to post this somewhere else. Newbie!