Can they ban a tie?

[JustMyType]

DD of a friend is due to go to Secondary next September. She likes her shirt and tie that they wear at her (perfectly ordinary) Primary and is a bit cheesed off that the uniform for big school is polo shirts. Certainly they don't look as nice and it does seem a bit of a backward step. I think they used to have a tie about 5 years ago. Her mother laughingly said perhaps they could get hold of one and send her in that. She'll probably have gone off the idea by then anyway, but presumably if anyone did that it would be treated as any other 'violation'.

[HauntedLittleLunatic]

Not sure - probably.

Worst still the child is likely to be bullied and so not really advisable - although I realise that it was originally said in jest

[Malcontentinthemiddle]

No, if they've changed the uniform then hunting out the old one and wearing it will just look silly.

[feckwit]

What IS the point of tie? But aside from that, you can't send a child to school in the incorrect uniform, otherwise what is the point of actually having a uniform?

[nagynolonger]

I don't see why a polo shirt can't look smart. If they are all dressed in matching trousers/skirts/jumpers they will look smart. I would prefer an open neck blouse for girls and a shirt and tie for boys which is what my own secondary school had many years ago. I think older teenage girls look silly in ties.

[JustMyType]

Yes, I don't think it was on their 'actually to do' list, just a thought really. I think part of the problem is that almost all the girls seem to wear those incredibly tight nylon trousers with the said polo shirt so the overall combination isn't very smart looking. She'll just have to stand her ground and wear a skirt with tights if she's still so inclined at the time.

[mummytime]

Maybe the mother needs to complain about the uniform? My kids have a tie as part of theirs, but also the girls are restricted to one style of trousers (2 or skirts). But wearing anything but the correct uniform is strictly forbidden. They are allowed to wear House Polo's after half-term in the summer, and they look pretty smart, but they are restricted to buying them from school, which means the quality is quite high. The school even has a rule which says jumpers can be worn over shirts but not with the house polo shirts, and this is enforced.

To turn up in the incorrect uniform at the start of the autumn term in year 7 is asking to be a target.

[bitsyandbetty]

Here the tie at the secondary school is a clip on which seems strange as my DS has been wearing a normal tie for years but it is because all the kids looked such a mess with different styles and shapes of tie. Remember when you were a teenager and different knots in the tie were fashionable. Polo shirts do seem to cut out the peer pressure of how you wear your tie but they do look smarter IMO.

[cory]

If the girl likes ties, can't she just wear one after schools or at week-ends? Or get involved in the school council and campaign for a new uniform?

Just turning up in a different uniform to the one currently worn at this school does smack of "I am so important that I make my own rules". I have nothing against teenagers defying authority in a good cause- but is this really it?

[seeker]

I think it would be very silly indeed to send a child to secondary school deliberately in the wrong uniform.

And why on earth should girls wear ties in the first place?

And what is this thing about children having to look "smart"? Practical comfortable clothes is what they need for school!

[maypole1]

bitsyandbetty my sons new school has just gone on to clip on ties so every bodys ties look the same, they have polo shorts for their summer uniforms personally I hope their not planning to change the uniform to this completely.

I think they look cheap and the kids look messy

[nagynolonger]

Whatever the uniform some children will look smart in it and some won't.

DC whose parents go for 'growing room' to save on cost will never look very smart because by the time it fits it will be well worn. My mother was one of these and she even went to the trouble of turning up the sleves on my school blazer, so I was left with a nice line around both cuffs.

I don't go for blazer and tie = smart, and polo shirt doesn't. A clean well fitting outfit will look smart. I also agree with seeker comfort and durability are more important.

[cookcleanerchaufferetc]

This is a bit off the wall but ...... Go to school in the correct ffing uniform! Jeez, ffs!

[Erebus]

Yes, blazers and polo shirts look ridiculous!

I lament that DS1's secondary ditched their smart shirt/tie/blazer about 7 years ago in favour of polo and sweatshirt. Though they are the highest achieving secondary in the county, academically, god they look scruffy compared with their nearest 'competitors'. The primary DS2 attends had a swim gala at this near-competitor's school pool last week and the Y7s there looked so much smarter and sharper than a similar bunch of my DS1's mates do!

Also, a blazer is actually quite a practical piece of kit with all those pockets!

fwiw, both DS1 and 2 used to attend a local junior school that still retains a tie and v neck, logo'ed jumper. Even they, at 8 and 10 when we moved, remarked upon how much more untidy they felt in their new primary's yellow polo shirt and pilled blue fleece!

[Theas18]

Uniform is uniform and yes " they" can specify what it is!

[robingood19]

dont all uniforms have a tie stipulation. Some teachers are obsessed with them being straight.

[seeker]

"Though they are the highest achieving secondary in the county, academically, god they look scruffy compared with their nearest 'competitors'.

Ditto dd's school.

Proof positive that all this guff about "smart uniform " is ridiculous. What do kids need to be 'smart" for. Chuck them in comfortable, easy to care for cheap clothes and ditch the snobbery.

[mnistooaddictive]

Children go to school to learn, not to look smart. I am sure I have read about research that shows children learn better when dressed comfortably.
A lot of countries that outperform us in academic achievement tables have no uniform. Why are we so obsessed by it?
We need to focus on what matters here.

[cookcleanerchaufferetc]

What matters is that kids need to be able to follow rules as decent people need to follow rules in life. Hopefully they will get employment where they is a requirement that staff wear uniform/suit etc. What then are they going to complain then? Uniform is uniform, just wear it. There has to be boundaries otherwise girls skirts will get shorter and boys will have shirts hanging out and so forth. Just wear the bloody uniform and if you dont like it talk to the school.

[nagynolonger]

We shouldn't be obsessed by uniform. My eldest 3 never had a school uniform but their 3 younger brothers always have. They all went to the same schools with many of the same teachers. If I'm honest there as been no difference in DC attitude, behaviour, or learning as far as I can tell.

I am in favour of uniforms simply on the ground of cost. It is cheaper IMO, and I does stop any 'discusions' about what will be worn. The class photos look smarter with uniforms........but I love the rainbow of colours from a non-uniformed class too.

[Erebus]

Yes, I'm all for uniform.

The fact remains that research has shown that a smart uniform can be part of a strict discipline policy and is considered a mainstay in the 'how to turn the failing inner city comp into an achieving Academy' handbook.

Without this descending into a 'Class Issue' the reason DS1's school have an 'informal approach' to uniform- though the rules are strictly applied! - is the school in question couldn't be in a more leafy suburb. I think the point of the strict, smart, sharp Academy (1st tranche) uniform is to instil a feeling of belonging, of being part of an institute in which you can hopefully feel pride. This might form an island of security and calm amidst the sea of chaos that engulfs the rest of their lives. In the instance of DS's state secondary, I reckon the DCs there have strong self belief and a strong sense of belonging, security and pride, being valued in all aspects of their lives. The school just provides another service (their education) which the vast majority of them are well placed to access fully and engage with in a disciplined manner without the need for the visuals of a smart uniform. More's the pity!

As for "A lot of countries that outperform us in academic achievement tables... have no uniform". No they don't necessarily 'outperform' us. It's just we English, in particular, enjoy indulging in a spot of self-flagellation. We are masters at doing ourselves down. The reality is can you be SURE those foreign DCs are being measured against the same criteria as ours? Or have they just achieved the locally agreed standard, however high or low?

You will always hear on those 'Move to Australia' TV shows, that, along with the mention of 'the fab blue skies, the endless sunshine, the great Outdoor Lifestyle' will come mention of 'the great schools', like they are as 'given' as better weather. No they aren't. It's just that Australians have a boundless self-belief untainted by doubt.

The French are suffering a crisis of direction within their education system, recognising its prescriptive and dictatorial style doesn't produce the thinkers of the future.

[Erebus]

( I must add before I'm corrected that I know Australia has school uniform- their private schools in particular have uniforms that Billy Bunter would consider passe, complete with boaters and gloves! But my point is that just because a country declares that its education is amazing, it doesn't mean that it necessarily is).

[freerangeeggs]

Actually Erebus, all the studies that have been done (albeit in the US) have shown that uniform has a negative correlation with attainment - kids' results got worse when uniforms were introduced!! I can't understand that, but I do think the effect is nil. Yes, it's part of the 'save your failing school' package, but it's impossible to assess its impact in those cases when it's just one of a large number of interventions.

Schools are for learning and ties do not impact on learning. Therefore ties should not be an issue.

I am in favour of school uniform for practical reasons, but I think polo shirts are the way to go. I spend ridiculous amounts of time as a teacher chasing boys up because they don't have shirts tucked in/their ties are too long etc. I do it because it's school policy but I find it difficult to give a monkey's arse how many stripes I can see on their tie. I have more important things to worry about.

As for English pupils underperforming - well, clearly loads of them don't, but I've worked in the Scottish school system and it's miles better. The qualifications are more stringent too. And nobody cares that much about uniform, either.

This is the second time today I've disagreed with you, Erebus :) I hope you don't think I have some sort of vendetta, I just like discussing this stuff!

[Erebus]

Ha, eggs- where shall we meet again?

I challenge you to....small business ads !

[cory]

Erebus Tue 19-Jul-11 12:56:08

"As for "A lot of countries that outperform us in academic achievement tables... have no uniform". No they don't necessarily 'outperform' us. It's just we English, in particular, enjoy indulging in a spot of self-flagellation. We are masters at doing ourselves down. The reality is can you be SURE those foreign DCs are being measured against the same criteria as ours? Or have they just achieved the locally agreed standard, however high or low?"

No, they are tested against the same criteria, e.g. in maths. Finnish schools are currently outperforming the rest of the world.

Not sure if you can compare the impact of non-uniform in a country that's never had it though with a country where it means something. Exactly what the message is is debatable though. I have noticed that locally the school with the best results has an informal uniform, the school with the strictest uniform is one which has suffered all sorts of problems and has very low results: neither is in a leafy suburb, but one clearly feels a lot more confident in its discipline. So the message slack-uniform-school is sending is "we're not worrying about this, we've got our discipline under control". Which in itself has quite a positive effect on discipline: pupils take it for granted that they are going to behave. But perhaps not a recipe for success in a school where there are already problems.