Exclusions/Expulsions - do schools not do it any more??

[PineappleDanish]

Just wondering what schools around Scotland do regarding expulsion / exclusion.

DD is in S3 and has just had a new boy join her class from another secondary nearby. In the few weeks since this child joined the school he's been sent out of class every day, got into numerous fights and last week (according to DD) the police were called after he pulled out a knife and threatened someone with it.

In my day - and I'm aware that makes me sound ancient - that child would have been expelled. He would have been in the local List D "naughty boys" school but those don't seem to exist any more.

Interestingly, DD reports that the other "naughty boy" in her year left at the same time as this new one arrived and went to a third school. It seems to an observer that the local schools are passing the problem pupils around between themselves on a "we'll take Bob if you have Adam" and so on.

So far the naughty boy hasn't as much as looked in DD's direction - he's more interested in dominating the boys. But if I were the parent of a boy he was wanting to fight with or pulling knives on I'm not sure how I'd feel about him remaining in school.

[WaxOnFeckOff]

I only know of one expulsion, for various stuff, fighting etc. They waited until she was 16 and then expelled for the next serious incident.

[PineappleDanish]

I did a wee bit of googling and it seems that only 5 people were expelled in 2017. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-47484927

So what's happening to them all? Just shunted around causing problems in different schools until they're 16 and can be got rid of more easily? Pretty crap state of affairs.

[WaxOnFeckOff]

Special educational units for disruptive and violent pupils still exist. I have friends that work locally in both primary and secondary units. The secondary one has a residential unit which I think just has boys and there is another one for girls. From what I know, I think they try really hard to get the pupils on an even keel but they often have troubled home lives and arrive with undiagnosed learning issues. I suspect that these units are technically schools so children are neither suspended or excluded in the figures.

[EarlyWinterThisYear]

Presumption of mainstream and the nurture/attachment focus which is prevalent in education at the minute mean that councils will not expel or exclude.

Units still exist but many were closed and it's becoming increasingly harder to get a place.

It's a bad day when you agree with the Record www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/cover-up-claim-only-one-11840278

Authorities use the drop in expulsions and exclusions to show how inclusive and nurturing they are, whereas the reality is that someone is roaming around a mainstream school assaulting other children and staff.

[Groovee]

It has happened in dd and ds's high school. Being excluded for poor behaviour worked for the boys in ds's year. But some in ds's year it was more effective to send them to the support for learning base as they still had to be at school and do work but not at home chilling like they would have liked to have been.

Managed moves can be difficult to arrange but do happen. Often means the pupil and parents signing a contract but they can be effective.

[PineappleDanish]

someone is roaming around a mainstream school assaulting other children and staff

Or sitting on their own in an isolation room not doing the worksheet they've been given. Agree that it's not acceptable to have violent kids in school and I would be the first person creating a massive fuss if a child of mine was affected.

But it's failing the "problem kids" too.

[MakeMineALargeProsecco]

There was a child in my DC's primary class, who had been excluded from various local schools - mostly private - but at least 2 other state schools. This was for violent behaviour, and before P4.

The child clearly had issues. But the rest of the class & teaching staff were subject to verbal abuse, physical attacks & constant disruption on a daily basis.

So this one child was supported to stay in school at the expense of the whole class & of the teachers.

The child was eventually removed by their parents & is now apparently home-schooled. But the council did not remove them.

I'm not sure what the answer is - but the needs of the majority should be placed above that of a single child.

[EarlyWinterThisYear]

But it's failing the "problem kids" too.

Absolutely. It's failing everyone- those children who are loudly struggling, those who are quietly struggling, those on the cusp who can be tempted, everyone.

I don't think the answer is that difficult. Early intervention. Supported living for mothers and babies with experienced staff. Excellent nursery provision (including mainstream and special nurseries). Reopening of the special units and schools. Investment in social services and health visitors. The problem is that these answers are expensive.

[Corneliawildthing]

Our LA wants to have zero exclusions. I'm in a large primary where staff are verbally abused on a daily occasion (being called a f c* in front of staff and pupils for example). There are no consequences and the kids know this. We have about 4 or 5 who roam around the school with a poor PSA trailing after them. We have a nurture room but they refuse to go into it.

I can't wait to retire.

[PineappleDanish]

Well DD reports today that "knife boy" is no longer at her school. She only realised when it was so quiet in Maths and asked someone what had happened to him. The kids are saying he's been expelled but seems that's unlikely, probably shunted off elsewhere to bide his time until he's old enough to leave school (and start on his fast track to Barlinnie).

Staff shouldn't be putting up with this. A 14 year old with a knife is potentially fatal to kids and staff. We can all see through the "oh we don't have expulsions and exclusions" nonsense for what it is. Why are the EIS not on this? Or is it because they are scared of being called non-inclusive?

[Corneliawildthing]

Our LA is never done of telling the public what an inclusive organisation they are. Truth is, all the schools are full of problem kids because the behaviour units have been closed. PSAs and teachers absolutely hate working in our school, but we have a silly HT who wants to be the parents' friend who has her head in the sand about what her staff are actually suffering on a daily basis.

[Fantababy]

Sometimes when pupils are moved it's to other mainstream schools which, for whatever reason, have more pupil support or services to control support challenging pupils. So a school in a poor area may take in pupils as they have more in the way of support.