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Scottish children being indoctrinated now - named person

(26 Posts)
peggyundercrackers Sat 25-Jun-16 20:35:52

I can't believe what the Scottish govt. are up to with this named person stuff. Where is it going to end? How much money are they wasting on crap like this? I thought the govt. and local councils were skint and had no money to waste but that doesn't seem to be the case if this is true. I think freedom of information request is needed to find out how much it is costing us

Superjaggy Sat 25-Jun-16 23:12:59

This play is about the UNCRC - rights of every child which have been adopted by every country in the world except the USA - and the article linked to is full of lies and speculation. The play does not mention named person at all and certainly does not tell children to expect adults who are complete strangers to take responsibility to them.

Are we seriously saying that we don't want adults to have respect for children's rights? Because that appears to be the tone of this article. I'm disgusted that this pressure group is taking such a stance just to score political points.

QuiteLikely5 Sat 25-Jun-16 23:19:01

How is it a waste of money? It places a responsibility on agencies working with children to help support a need, where one is identified

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Sat 25-Jun-16 23:23:58

Eh?! So children shouldn't be taught about their rights! DDs school has a poster with them displayed in the entrance to the school - should I be outraged?

There are some potential issues with named persons, but your OP is paranoid and ill informed and badly damages any possible credence the N2NP campaign may have had.

peggyundercrackers Sun 26-Jun-16 08:26:42

Superjaggy by the play mentions shanarri all the way through it, that is what named person indicators are based upon so not sure why you think named person isn't part of this play.

I would think every adult knows their child has rights but this play isn't aimed at adults, it's aimed at children.

Quite likely your comment is naive at best. This act is putting in place a state guardian for every child in which all the govt. documentation shows the state guardian has more importance in your child's life than you do as a parent, it doesn't mention the parental role in their documentation. You and your family are also included in any assessment but then they won't tell you what they think of you. They can ask for all your information from your go or whoever and the go needs to give them the information but doesn't need to tell you about it. This act has nothing to do with agencies supporting children but everything to do with govt. collecting data about people without their consent.

It's all I don't have an issue with children being taught about their rights as long as the material is appropriate and explains everyone has rights, Telling them to sing about shanarri is not appropriate.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Sun 26-Jun-16 13:00:29

How on earth is singing the shanarri song inappropriate - it is simply a song about their rights?

AgentProvocateur Sun 26-Jun-16 13:29:26

FFS hmm It's about the UNCRC. Do you believe that Elvis is still alive too?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Sun 26-Jun-16 13:31:22

Hello sunshine. Hello blue sky


We’re safe and we’re healthy and achieving

We’re nurtured and we’re active every day

Respected you can see. Responsible are we

When everyone’s included we can be happy

Hello sunshine. Hello blue sky


Let’s work together / Brighten up the weather

We can make a wonderful dream

Let’s hold a vigil / For every individual

To play their part in the greatest team

We can measure / Pride and pleasure

It’s the way we’re sure to win

Let’s not tarry / We can do Shanarri

Let’s put the joy in joining in"

WankersHacksandThieves Sun 26-Jun-16 13:48:50

Well, we had a letter home all about GIRFEC and Named persons. It doesn't give a name yet but states that it will be the Headteacher/Deputy Headteacher. People that don't know my DSs from the next child. The only issue I have ever had was where I asked for school support and got fuck all so that's all going to work out fine then.....hmm

DH intends to contact ours as soon as the name is confirmed and ask to opt out as per NS saying we could. Then I think we can just keep going to them and asking for advice since we clearly can't parent our own children. We've got the 8 well being indicators so I'm wondering what i should do if my teen refuses to come with me (Included) for fresh air and exercise (Healthy & Active), clearly I have to Respect his wishes, though I am not sure if that would be Responsible? I would promise to keep him Safe and Nurtured but i'm not sure what I'd be Achieving by dragging him out the house....

It indicates that for children not in school and age 16+, Youth Services will be the NP. Seems over the top for me, young adults who could be working and living independently don't need this and those that do will surely already be with SW or YS.

Superjaggy Sun 26-Jun-16 18:31:38

Peggy, I'm not being naive, you are being misled by a (fairly small) bunch of paranoid anti-SNP campaigners who fail to mention the rights of children in any of their campaign materials.

The Shanarri indicators have been in use in schools for over 3 years now, I can't believe that you don't think that children should be encouraged to feel safe, active, healthy, nurtured etc. Shanarri and GIRFEC are the approaches being used in Scottish education to ensure that the UN charter is being fulfilled.

I can promise you, having watched the play in question, that named person is not referred to. Even if it did, do you really think that's likely to be the phrase picked up by primary age children? (In my school they remembered some of the rights, like the right to play, and that one of the actors was funny. Some of them remembered the name of the woman who founded Save the Children.)

DailyMailEthicalFail Tue 05-Jul-16 11:24:52

Ok. So I know of a child who has come home from school having been told that 'all the adults in your life are like gardeners. Your Named Person is your Head Gardener that all the other adults go to'. That is not acceptable.

Plus I know of another local person who wrote to Swinney as their NP is someone about whom they have already put in a formal complaint (and they feel that person now has a grudge against them). Can they have a different NP they asked? NO has come the reply, with some standard bumpf and some leaflets.

NP doesn't even legally start until August 31st!

blueskyinmarch Tue 05-Jul-16 11:33:25

Our LA has piloted the Named Person scheme. It is the HV (for preschoolers) HT (at primary school) or the guidance teacher (at high school) who is the named person and they are responsible for the well being of the children, passing on concerns, chairing well being meetings if needed, liaising with SW if needed. Most children will never have any notion of having a named person but they should always know which responsible adults to go to if they have an issue. It works well for children who have issues as there is a point of contact for them and any concerns can be identified and actioned quickly.

SHANARRI indicators have been around for many years. They are fine as well being indicators but are not so good as risk indicators. They are a pain in the arse for incorporating into reports. I have never heard the SHANARRI song. I am a (recently retired) SW btw.

DailyMailEthicalFail Tue 05-Jul-16 11:44:09

"well being indicators". What a piece of tosh.

All that is needed is good risk indicators.
And for those to be promptly acted upon when needed.
And for professionals to take accurate notes and liaise with each other.
And to act when needed.
And, and this is the crucial bit - for them to be legally responsible for their actions.

Then, we wouldn't have this unholy mess of 'wellbeing indicators'.

I know an NP who is currently on hols in Africa for the 7 weeks of the hols.
So, the contact for her 300-odd NP-ee's???
A generic email address.

You couldn't make this up! angry sad

BakewellSliceAgain Tue 05-Jul-16 11:50:24

If it's anything like CfE I hate it already..sorry.

I have seen kiids praised for using the adults' slogans " effective learner" "useful citizen", "brainwashed automaton"..sorry I exaggerate but I hate it all with a passion. Get on with actions not sloganeering.

What would have helped Liam Fee?

WankersHacksandThieves Tue 05-Jul-16 13:00:23

Liam Fee had a named person.

blueskyinmarch Tue 05-Jul-16 13:33:35

Liam fee also had a social worker. You just can't legislate for evil.

DailyMailEthicalFail Tue 05-Jul-16 14:37:46

I think you can legislate in the hope of preventing evil.

LM, like many children, was 'known to SS/CP/NP'.
'chances were missed'.

this happens again and again and again and again.
Why are SS, GP's, HT's, Police / Legal system not accountable?
Because until they ARE, it will happen again and again and again and again.

If you want to have a NP system then for goodness sake drop the ridiculous 'wellbeing indicators' (like CfE, so darn woolly they can be twisted to mean anything at all) and spend the money on setting up some ACCOUNTABLE persons.

OhSusanna Tue 05-Jul-16 14:41:08

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

cdtaylornats Tue 05-Jul-16 15:55:26

My problem with NP is there seems to be no way to complain about them. Reading the legislation it seems to say there will be and an appropriate set of rules will be implemented as an appropriate minister sees fit. That cannot be acceptable in legislation, this whole thing is so badly defined all that will happen is a vast amount of money will be spent on lawyers which will eventually get to the European Court of Human Rights.

DailyMailEthicalFail Tue 05-Jul-16 18:39:35

EXACTLY cdtaylornats

how can you implement legislation which does not yet have a complaints process?

the whole thing is a vast waste of money - agree with you there OhSusanna about the lack of basic supplies in schools - no paper, no pencils, no glue, no stickers (buy your own!) by Easter -

and, frankly, dangerous as it purports to be 'fit for purpose' for 'saving just one life' and it's no such thing

rogueantimatter Sat 09-Jul-16 11:15:27

DS is changing schools for his sixth year. When he started in June he wasn't even on the subject class registers - half way through a lesson a teacher asked him who he was. I've no idea if he knows who his guidance teacher is. He had four different guidance teachers in his previous school - promotions and maternity leaves caused the changes. He has slight ASD which the schools know about - he takes ages to remember the names of people.

His guidance teacher at his previous school phoned me in S1 as the DF of another child whose mother was a teacher in the school had made a complaint about DS upsetting her/him. I could hardly speak as I was having chemo at the time. DS had fallen out with this child in the summer hols - as they did from time to time - when the child had apparently said that s/he didn't care if I died. I was unaware of this as I was in hospital having major surgery. A silly squabble followed up by the person who would have been DS' named person caused me needless worry at a difficult time. I think the guidance teacher felt bad bothering me, but she felt she had to which is understandable but the potential for a conflict of interests in a situation like that seems obvious.

WankersHacksandThieves Sat 09-Jul-16 11:32:07

That's awful rougue We've been told it isn't the guidance teacher, it will be the Head/Deputy Head.

mouseyb Sun 17-Jul-16 21:55:08

Hi I am a parent who is currently trying to find out how to complain about my childs named person (primary head) I believe. This is the individual who has in our eyes neglected their duty of care of our child, due to bullying within the school which led our child to want to take their own life. This is the individual who has treated us with lip service and contempt and this is the individual who can request our personal details and has been given further powers to ascertain and act upon our child's welfare (who is stated above everyone else to have our child's best interests at heart! ) This individual has done nothing to advocate our child's best interests, only her schools reputation.
In addition this is an individual who belongs to one of the few groups of professionals who do not seem to value or respect confidentiality the way some of us do and are required to do by our code of conduct. given the amount of gossip that goes on within the staff room. Whilst I appreciate not all teachers participate in this gossip and not all schools allow it, our school does as do many others and I hate to think just how damaging certain information will become in some individuals hands.Majority of Parents shall and always will be their child',s best advocates and care givers. If the amount of funding that was being piled into this was put towards the relevant services which are snowed under then perhaps more could be done for early detection and care of at risk children . The other major concern is just how accountable will these nominated individuals be if something goes wrong or they are ineffectual. I am left feeling deeply frustrated and concerned that there currently seems to be nothing I can do about this.

cdtaylornats Sun 17-Jul-16 22:30:21

No complaints process is specified as yet. All the legislation says is the appropriate minister will at some point define a complaints procedure.

DailyMailEthicalFail Mon 18-Jul-16 12:11:21


Sadly, there is nothing you can do.

I am in a similar position, for similar reasons.
I have asked for my child's NP to be a different person.
I have been told NO.

There is no complaints procedure - it is still to be worked out.
There is no Opt-Out, despite what NS says.
She has read it and knows that perfectly well and is lying through her teeth.

The current legal action is absolutely crucial re this abuse of human rights contained in the NP legislation. It is also a horrendous waste of money. I have sat through innumerable meetings the sole purpose of which has been window dressing / professionals justifying their lack of action. We have pointed out the HUGE waste of resources, which could be spent on helping the child in question.

NP is NOT about 'saving just one child'. It is about data gathering.
It is about window dressing. It is about making sure professionals cannot be held accountable for lack of action in cases of real abuse. It purports to be an accountable system - yet I have friends who have been given generic email addresses for their NP's over the summer hols.

If the Supreme Court in London do not rule by 31 Aug (the 17th is the latest they can do so, I believe) then the Christian group who are bringing the action will seek an Injunction to prevent NP from becoming legal.

I suggest you send a letter to school saying that you do not consent to ANY data sharing regarding your entire family prior to NP becoming LAW and that you will take action if you discover that this has occurred. This will certainly then Flag you Up as a family 'of concern' however.

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