School year groups - moving to Scottish system from English

[wigglylines]

We're considering moving to Scotland from England.

I'm wondering which year group our DC will be put into. Can anyone help?

What year would DS be in - he's 7, with a November birthday.

Also, what year would I need to apply for school for DD - she's 3 with a May birthday?

I'm wondering if DS will effectively go down a year as the kids are put into their school years by birth-dates according to academic years in England whereas IIRC in Scotland it's calendar years that are used.

Also, in England the year you go into is decided strictly by age, there's no flexibility. Is the same true in Scotland?

DP is Scottish, but we've not lived there since having kids and it's some time since he was at primary school so he's not sure about any of this!

Thanks in advance :)

[RawCoconutMacaroon]

P1 pupils are usually age 4 1/2 -5 1/2. Your DS, with a nov birthday would typically have started P1 at 4 3/4 years of age (although it would have been your choice to delay him until the August after he turned 5, ie starting P1 at 5 3/4), which would mean he'd be in P4 after these summer holidays.

Your DD would be due to start P1 the August after she turned 5 (our intake year starts on 1st March), she'd be in the oldest half of her year group.

For p1 entry, the forms are submitted in the Jan before the Aug they start school.

[dementedpixie]

I agree that he would be due to go into P4 after this summer.

[weebarra]

He's a month younger than DS1 who will go into p4 after the summer.

[TeacupDrama]

DS at now 7.5 would start P4 in august Like starting Y3 in England, he will be in youngest half of class,

Your Dd will start the august after she is 5, so a year later than in England, if you move back at some point she may have to skip a year. But she will be in oldest half of the year group
To start school at 4 you must be 5 before 28th February, if you are 5 in January or February you can choose to defer entry without jumping a year later but this is irrelevant in your case.

[Groovee]

Applying for school for your dd will depend on which part you move to. Edinburgh register for P1 in the November prior to them going in the August. But it would be the November before she was 5.

[wigglylines]

Thanks everyone :)

So, if i've understood this correctly, DS will end up being among the youngest in his year, but the kids he's with will have been at school for the same amount of time as him.

For DD on the other hand, depending on when we move, she may end up doing an extra year of school as she would be due to start in the September before she turns 5.

The primary school near us now is lovely and reception (our P1) is very play-based so I wouldn't worry about her doing an extra year.

The secondaries around here are not great however, and are one of many factors pushing us towards moving.

I feel a little uncomfortable about DS being the youngest in the year though. Will need to get my head round that.

He's bright, and very interested in science and the world. He is good at maths and teachers praise his ability to understand complex ideas and his imagination.

His concentration is poor however and his reading is average, within a class where he is amongst the oldest. His pen skills are towards the lower end of the class though - he is behind most of his peers in drawing and handwriting and he tells me the other children make fun of his drawing. He is a sensitive child and really takes criticism to heart.

I wonder how he will fit in being the youngest and even more behind most of the kids?

Is this a fair concern do you think?

[howdoyousolvethisproblem]

There could possibly be children in your ds's year that would have been born in December, or even the jan/February after him so he wouldn't necessarily be the youngest.

[dementedpixie]

He will not be the youngest as there could be children in his class with December, January and February birthdays.

[wigglylines]

Yes you're right. Among the youngest then!

Thinking about it a bit more, although the kids he's with will have done the same amount if school, I read on mumsnet that the English reception year is more like the Scottish nursery/kindergarten year, so actually the kids he's with will have had an extra year's schooling.

Also (sorry to drip feed) I changed the kids birthdays slightly to be less identifying (I don't want my English family to learn we're moving away from mumsnet! Would rather start that discussion myself) but as it's maybe relevant ... DS's birthday is actually at the end of December.

[wigglylines]

Again sorry for drip feeding but i'm thinking aloud here!

DS is not very mature emotionally. His teacher puts his lack of concentration down to emotional immaturity, and his friends in his class are two lovely boys who happen to be similarly behind the rest of the class emotionally / socially.

I wonder if he will struggle to make friends if he's the youngest.

I expect i'm over thinking, but hey i'm his mother it's my job!

[tabulahrasa]

You could request that he's put into P3...I have no idea how likely it is, but given that it's not exactly uncommon to defer DC with December birthdays anyway it may well be granted.

[museumum]

with a December birthday my area would expect a special reason to have held him back starting (jan and feb birthdays don't need a reason) so really p4 is the right fit for him. I'd speak to the teachers now if you can about what level of writing the children are going to be at when he joins and whether your ds might need some more support.
I would be surprised if there's much difference between p4 and y3. P1 in Scotland is like yR in that many children go there straight from home with no prior nursery. There is no set scottish nursery or kindergarten year, there's optional private nursery and school nurseries from age 3-5 but not all children use them and they are completely play led.

[museumum]

Cross-posted with your last post. Being behind peers woukd count as a "special reason" here so I think p3 or p4 might be options. You need to talk to the school. Ideally visit it but as the school's break up a week on Friday that might be hard. Where are you with your move plans? Have you found a house etc?

[tabulahrasa]

Yep, I was just about to say, yes you need a reason other than just they'll be the youngest in the year to defer for a December birthday but being a bit behind peers is a reason.

[prettybird]

If your ds' birthday is end December, you'd have the option of only starting him in P1 the following year - and depending on the local authority, you might even get the nursery funding to do so (normally Jan/Feb birthdays can get it automatically, earlier dates are discretionary and will include the opinion of the nursery as to school readiness).

In fact all kids who are not 5 by the time they are 5 when p1 starts have the right to defer to the following year. In practice, many Jan/Feb kids are deferred, quite a few December and not many for earlier birthdays.

Although at ds' rugby club there is an October birthday that is "deferred", so very old for his year (causes comments at games cos he has a beard! ) but that was also because he came from another country well after school started

[Lovetunnocks]

I'm not an expert but you would have had the option to delay him (under Scottish system) in P1 so could you delay him now instead? I.E ask that he be placed in p3 instead of p4 bearing in mind his age and your concerns. My only worry with that is that he might get a bit bored if he's on the bright end re science/maths/imagination but that might not be an issue depending on the school. Also some of the difficulties you mention - the reading, the pen skills - is he dyslexic? Whether he is or he isn't you might be able to find some extra help for him in those areas and keep him in the older year group. It sounds like his confidence needs a boost in those areas. (Been there and got the tee-shirt with my own DS so apologies if projecting!). Sorry - not being very clear, in a bit of a rush!

[SetPhasersTaeMalkie]

I would talk to the school then. There may be some flexibility.

I understand your concerns and in your position would probably want P3 rather than 4. However you should consider the work aspect too. Would it be possible to take samples of his work to his new school?

In my area schools still have three weeks until the end of term.

[prettybird]

Glasgow schools stop next Wednesday lunchtime

Edinburgh is the end of next week (26th).

[prettybird]

The other thing to consider is that although we often on MN talk about Reception = P1, I think that can be misleading.

Both systems have (up to) 13 years of "formal" schooling. Y1-Y11 and then 3 years of 6th form in England and P1-P7 & S1-S6 in Scotland.

In England, they go to secondary school in Y7 (after 6 years of primary - 7 if you include Reception) and sit GCSEs in Y11 (ie in their 5th year of secondary), whereas in Scotland, we go to secondary after 7 years of primary and then sit Nat 5s in their 4th year of secondary.

Both systems then have up to 2 more years of exams: A levels after 2 years (with option of AS levels) or Highers (the main Scottish qualification) after 1 year (some choose to do them over 2) in S5 and then more Highers and/or Advanced Highers/A Levels in S6.

[beatricequimby]

I sew quite a lot of kids moving into the Scottish system and there is often flexibility about which year group they go into to ensure the transition works for them. If you want him to go into p3 phone schools you are interested in and check it out with them.

[WankerDeAsalWipe]

In general in the primary school my boys went to, a pupil coming to the school from a different country went into the lower year where possible - at least initially though a few moved up a class afterwards. Personally I think that teachers have to cover a range of abilities in a class regardless so I think it's probably more important to be with social peers than educational peers.

[wigglylines]

Thanks everyone, that's all very reassuring. The English system AFAIK is much less flexible about moving kids up or down a year.

[wigglylines]

museumum you asked what stage we are with the move. I'd say embryonic!

We've only just agreed that it's what we're going to do, and we're just starting to make plans and think about logistics.

The absolute earliest I could see us move would be summer next year - the right job coming up would force our hand for example. But realistically I think it'll be 2017 or maybe even 2018, there are a few factors to consider (which I won't bore you with right now!).

Lots could change by then. If DS is behind in some areas now because of emotional immaturity, it could be that he's come on in leaps and bounds by then and it's not so much of a concern. But it's really useful knowing what's possible and an idea of how we might approach it. We can prepare for the move by talking to his teachers here too about what they think might work best for him, once we have a better idea of when we'll be moving.

[wigglylines]

Lovetunnocks thanks for your message - you asked is he dyslexic? (That is such a hard word to spell!)

I don't know - it's not something I've really considered. I had considered ADD recently, given his poor concentration, and spoke to his teacher about it. That's how the conversation happened where she put his lack of concentration down to emotional immaturity, she didn't think we should be concerned about anything like ADD.

I have no experience of dyslexia - what signs should I be looking for, apart from general difficulty with reading? Could we expect the school to pick it up or does it still get missed a lot these days?