Cheating Toerag

[YetAnother1]

H has been cold, offish and grumpy for quite a while now. Years.
He started talking really condescendingly towards me a few years ago - it's exactly the way his father talks to his mother, and she tolerates it. I told him I won't, and to not talk like that to me. He knows he does it, knows he got it from father. He apologized back in the day, then carried on now and again. I think this was the catalyst for my feeling he'd lost respect/love for me, because he never used to speak to me like that, so if that's what his feelings were manifesting as, it felt clear to me how he felt. But our youngest was a baby and I desperately didn't want to split and then have him get the kids several nights a week. So each time he'd talk down to me, I'd pull him up on it and he'd apologise and at least make an effort for a while. But then it gradually got more frequent and I just withdrew. Just felt I'd rather not hear him talk to me that way at all, nor have the kids hear it, so conversation dwindled to basic practical stuff about the kids and what's for dinner. Nothing physical since then. I'm peri-menopausal anyway and not feeling like I'm missing that aspect of life right now. Perhaps had he not been so rude in his mannerisms and words, I'd have gotten that part of our lives back.
Actually, I feel the downspiral started during my last pregnancy, he wasn't helpful, kept consuming something the smell of which made me nauseous but he wouldn't stop despite my asking, didn't bother reading a childbirth book I really wanted him to read which would have helped me, and he was a huge letdown during labour. I just threw myself into adoring my children, they were both a long time coming and made me very happy.
So neither of us have been especially happy with each other, but I am so busy with the kids (nine, four) with zero help or support, he was busy doing various courses (kept him busy, cost us money, but actually does nothing to enhance his career in any way despite him telling me it was an investment that would help us financially) and such is life. I did not want to split when the kids were so young. I mean, they are still young :( .

I have been a sahm since our first was born, and we chose to home educate them. I knew this was a gamble for my own sense of financial security but I trusted him, and really wanted to not have the kids at school so young.
I am also hundreds of miles from my home town (though I have no parental help back there anyway. Still UK. My mother is still alive but we are NC. I have no practical support.).

He's been especially distant recently. He moved out of the family bed (still cosleep and bf the little one) at the start of lockdown, he claimed to get more space/better night's sleep as she still disturbed him in the night and both kids were staying up a little later due to their activities being cancelled. I was happy with this as his snoring was getting worse, and he didn't shower enough like I preferred he did before bed either. This was another source of contention, I'd politely ask him to shower before bed (I mean, I shouldn't even have to ask, right?), and he'd moan about it. Especially during pregnancy, my sense of smell seemed heightened, and he still wouldn't shower (he'd have one in the morning, but by the end of the day, he really needed a shower, imo.).

He's been jogging more, and staying in his home office more. Whether he's actually been jogging to get fit, or it's just his way to get out of the house to see her, I don't know.
I have had a feeling for a while now, that his thoughts are elsewhere.
He's been out a few evenings recently, he's not been one much for going out since we had the kids.
Tonight, he went out and accidentally left his computer on. I snooped and he's been chatting to a woman, I couldn't read it all as the kids were still running about and I didn't want them to see me looking, but it clearly points to at the least, flirting, building up to an affair. Lots of chatting about TV shows and books they read/watch together, signing off with xxx. I was skim reading so fast and could barely read it well, my heart was pounding so hard and my eyes felt blurry. She knows he's married with kids, and referred to his "situation". They talked about meeting up and having some drinks and"seeing what developed".
There were reams and reams of messages, I didn't even manage to scroll to the beginning to see how or when this started.
He also mentioned having a burner SIM card for his phone.
And he met her tonight.
I think they kissed, bare minimum.
When he got home, I nonchalantly asked him where he'd been, and he mentioned a male colleague by name (rolled off his tongue without a moment's hesitation), to discuss something work-oriented.

I feel stuck. I don't want to be with him, but I absolutely desperately don't want to be without my kids one night a week and every other weekend, or whatever it is, either.
But when I'm really unable to tolerate this situation, how do I even get out? I don't have a job, and not even sure what I'd do after ten years out of the workplace. I desperately didn't want the kids to have to go to school til they were a little older.
I did put the vast majority of money into our house, from the house I had before we met. He brought nothing financially to the table at that stage, but obviously has been the sole earner since our eldest was born.

I haven't been happy in our location for a long time either, I never wanted to move here but we did for his job. It was not meant to be permanent. I have wanted to move back to my hometown/area for years. Now I feel stuck in an area I absolutely hate, with no job, two kids, no practical support (yes, I've made friends here, but no one I can think of who'd be able to help, they all have kids too). My best friend lives abroad. I also can't even afford to move back as I come from a relatively expensive area. And now I don't even know if it's fair to uproot the kids and move hundreds of miles away. Is it?

First things first, I know I need to get evidence. Help - it's on his computer on WhatsApp. How do I save their conversation? I can only think of taking photos but that will take ages.
He's very techy, and I don't even know when he'll next make the mistake of leaving his computer on again.
I don't have the passwords for our bank account either. As he was the only one earning, he has been the one to oversee the accounts.

Shit.

[YetAnother1]

Sorry. I did put paragraph breaks in, I don't know why it's one big wall of text.

[PartoftheProbl3m]

You have evidence surely.

I don’t shower before bed

[YetAnother1]

I mean for divorce proceedings. Proof, in photographic form that can't be denied.

Ok, well, he needed to shower. I think it's rude not to when you've been out all day and built up sweat and grime. Especially men.

[BrowncoatWaffles]

You don’t need proof to divorce him. You do need legal advice. Book an appointment with a solicitor and try and put together as much financial information as you can.

Do you want to confront him yet?

[YetAnother1]

I just want proof anyway. Just so he can't deny it.

I need to work out what I want to do - make a life here with my kids, or move them back to where I'm from. I don't know how to make this decision yet. There's no easy answer. I'd prefer to go back home. But my kids have been here for seven years, have friends and clubs (football etc) that they go to. I will do what's best for them, if I can work out what that is.
I also am so stressed about having to move, and how on earth I will manage financially.

I've not slept tonight yet. 5.30am and I've not managed to sleep. I'm so sad for my kids.
I know I will be happier in a house without him.

[FingersCrossedForAllOfUs]

I’m sorry to hear what you are going through OP.
As mentioned, see a solicitor with any financial information you can find. Keep all important documents somewhere safe.
Have a look at a benefits calculator, you will be entitled to help. If you confronted him would he leave? Why should you be the one to uproot with the DC’s?

On the point of him showering, it’s all part of a bigger problem. You mentioned he wouldn’t stop eating strong smelling food when you were nauseous during pregnancy and wasn’t supportive during the birth. He no longer cares about being a good man or husband. Which is demonstrated by his WhatsApp conversations with this woman and him meeting her. I’m not sure how you can keep a record of them, try googling. Or someone else more tech savvy will hopefully be along soon.

I know you are sad about the DC’s being upset and unsettled but you can’t keep living like this.

[category12]

Honestly, you've been living in a shit marriage for so long, his affair is at least a boot in the arse to end or change it.

You would get used to, and maybe even enjoy having some time of your own in contact time. (I never thought I would, but I have). And surely it would be better for dc than wait until they're older, what senior school with the important exams and puberty? Or were you planning to hang on until adulthood?

Neither of you are happy and it's not a great example of relationship to be modeling to your dc.

[Lifeisabeach09]

In terms of your pregnancy and showering nightly, you sound a bit precious.
As for the marriage, push him into leaving if you can.
Did you ring-fence the money you put into the house?
Firstly, you need to get your kids registered in school then you need to look for a job or course to build up skills.

[ScrumptiousBears]

This is going to sound harsh but you've had a shit marriage. You had kids with him and he was shit. You knew you were putting yourself in financial jeopardy by being a SAHM but trusted him even though he was a shit. Haven't made a life for yourself or been away from your children even though he was shit. Now you are more interested in proving he is a shit than getting this sorted.

OP get legal advice, get it sorted and get a life because it's too short. You are also teaching your kids that this shit life is acceptable and it isn't.

Let this be a lesson to others who put their entire future and well-being in someone's else's hands without your own protection. It makes me cross to see post after post where women find themselves in this situation.

[Shoxfordian]

Please start making some choices for yourself. You said you wouldn't tolerate him talking to you like shit but you stayed married so you have tolerated it. If you don't want to live where you are then think about how you can change things. It sounds like you've been unhappy for so long that you've forgotten this isn't how a marriage is supposed to be.

[Wishing14]

As someone who suffers from from severe nausea and vomiting in pregnancy I don’t think you sound precious at all about the food and smells during pregnancy! It’s like actual torture but unfortunately many people (even women) aren’t able to empathise unless they’ve been through it themselves. I also understand what you mean about the ‘talking down to’ - I’ve seen it in various family members and their wives in my upbringing and i know how infuriating it is and how small it makes women feel.
I don’t really have any useful advice but didn’t want to read and run. You sound like a very thoughtful and caring mum, and you and your husband have clearly grown apart, neither are happy together. But it is never an excuse for infidelity! I totally understand being scared to not see your children all the time, if I think about splitting up with my parter it’s absolutely the thing that frightens me most. But at the same time I think in time it could be good for you, to focus on you and developing you and your life. What do you want to do and be beyond being a mum? You are more than just ‘mum’ after all, you are you and your thoughts, feelings, and needs all matter.

[AnyFucker]

Op, you need to get yourself into gear and quick

Stop messing about looking for proof you can confront him with ( why ? Do you want him to stop this and re commit to you ?).

Use this time while he still thinks you are oblivious to make your own plans before he forces his own on to you

[Ori3]

It’s over. It was over years ago. You know you’ll be happier on your own, away from him.

[Belleende]

You are in such a precarious position. You haven't worked in years and you are tied to the kids 24/7 as you home school, and you have no idea of the finances.

Your first concern seems to be about losin g time with the kids but do you know the phrase put your own oxygen mask on first? You need to start putting the pieces together that will allow you to live a life independent from your husband. You need to focus on the finances.

You need a plan that gets you earning ASAP. You need to know what benefits you would be entitled to if you split. You need an idea of how housing might work.

You say you have thrown yourself into the kids to the exclusion of everything else by the sounds of it. Life as a single mum means being mum and provider, and organiser, and handyman, and taxi driver etc.

My sister put herself in your position, her husband cheated and pays bare minimum CMS. Her kids are now late teens. In a couple of years she will not have any CMS, she will be single living in rented accommodation in London, no pension, no property and in her industry income is very unpredictable. It is terrifying. With hindsight, my advice to her 15 years ago would be to retrain in a profession so she would earn a dependable wage and have a pension so she wouldn't be left up shit creek when the kids left.

[rainbowstardrops]

Bide your time right now and see if you can get some evidence as you think that would be better so that he can't deny anything but I think you'd be far happier without him.

[Sunshineandflipflops]

If you want evidence of adultery for a divorce i wouldn't bother. You have to prove they were sleeping together and unless you find a message saying something along the lines of "I really enjoyed having sex with you last night" then it's fruitless. I was in your position.

I didn't tell my ex that though and as far as he was concerned I could divorce him for adultery. I the end we decided to separate and hold fire on the divorce as it benefited neither if us really any more than a separation would.

It should like neither of you are happy. If I'm honest, I imagine sleeping in the spare room as your 4 year old is in your place can't be all that nice for him and must kill the passion a bit. It also sounds like you may have some attachment issues if you home-school and can't bear the thought of a few nights away from your children. I don't mean that is a horrible way, but it sounds like your kids are all you know. Maybe it's time to discover you a little. If that means moving then do it. Your kids will make new friends and at least moving school isn't a problem, which it is for most women in your position.

Let him go op, tell him you know and he is free to leave.

[IveGotFrills]

So sorry OP, you are clearly in a tailspin right now. Take a breath - he doesn't know you know so you have time.

You can send the WhatsApp conversation to your app. (or email) Click on the name of the OW and at the bottom of the list it'll say Export Chat. You can also clone his account and see all new messages live but you'll have to Google that as I'm not sure how it's done. But it's easy by the looks.

I recently read somewhere that to cite infidelity as grounds for divorce you have to do it within 6 months of finding out but it doesn't really matter as you will be entitled to at least half of all assets & a home as long as the kids are young. Perhaps start getting all the docs you need together and start a fund as a buffer if you need it. It will have to be declared but at least it buys you some security if he flits or you make him leave. You have the moral high ground. Yes, your marriage was over but he should have said I'm out, not gone behind your back. Start thinking about what you want to do. X

[YetAnother1]

Thank you for the replies.

I want proof so he can't act like some noble guy. I do not want to get him back.

I feel sick, and immobilised this morning. Like I'm absolutely stuck and no idea how to help myself. I don't have access to our finances. Yes things haven't been great but I thought we were both happy enough with the kids and that he wouldn't do this.

I did not ring fence the money from my house. Will there be some sort of record of that first property being mine alone? That solicitors could find?

I am of course attached to my children, if he was a good man this would be great. I think society has moved away from focusing on our children and sending them out to school for example, for so many hours when they are so young. I feel sick at being forced to send them to school. They would absolutely hate it.

I don't think I'm precious re asking him to shower before bed after he's been at work all day, or asking him to not consume stuff that really made me nauseous during pregnancy. It's basic consideration, I think.

I really really have to work out whether I should move hundreds of miles away, I think, first. I have no help either way, other than friends who all have kids the same ages and are busy with their own lives. I feel like such a fool now, but when I married him, I thought he was different.
If I do move, how do I even start getting a job, before moving? And getting all my things in order? I don't even know how to make it happen.

Can't believe how sick I feel. Physically sick feeling in my entire body.

What do I tell the kids about why I'm leaving him?

[Ladybyrd]

I wouldn't have an issue with partner leaving showers until the morning BUT he doesn't go jogging. If he doesn't shower after getting sweaty, that would be grim. And some people do sweat more I suppose.

If it were me, I'd take screenshots (alt+f10), paste them into a word doc and email it to myself. Then I'd make it look like I'd never been there and go and see a solicitor. He or she can advise you on your next steps. Obviously you will be very upset, but revenge is a dish best served cold. If there's anything you can do now to protect your position, you'll kick yourself otherwise.

I know you don't want things to change but it seems to me things will have to. I think the rot has crept in to such a degree you've become a bit blinkered to it. Your life with him sounds far from happy. You can have a happy home without him, but is that really possible if you continue living together? Or will you just end up like his parents?

He knows you're on a back foot, that's why he's got so much audacity. I would present him with a print off of the messages with his divorce papers.

You can have a better, much happier life, but I do think a lot will have to give. You will need an income of some sort, I would have thought.

[Ladybyrd]

Oh and I wouldn't get to rosy- eyed about your hometown. The last time I went back to mine, it was a huge disappointment. Could it be that you associate it with feeling safe and belonging? My hometown was unrecognisable when I went back, and most of my friends left years ago. Doesn't stop you starting again though, either there or somewhere else.

[YetAnother1]

Thanks for the reply.

I am reeling from him doing this and feel utterly unable to move.
I can't think what job I could get now. I had a good job but the industry has moved on incredibly since I left and I'm unable to just return to it. I hate myself for letting myself be this vulnerable. Absolutely hate myself.
The job market is terrible right now, Brexit is a disaster in top of covid, I'm in deep deep trouble.

[YetAnother1]

Thanks for the reply.

I am reeling from him doing this and feel utterly unable to move.
I can't think what job I could get now. I had a good job but the industry has moved on incredibly since I left and I'm unable to just return to it. I hate myself for letting myself be this vulnerable. Absolutely hate myself.
The job market is terrible right now, Brexit is a disaster on top of covid, I'm in deep deep trouble.

[Ladybyrd]

Honestly, your best bet is to get professional advice. I would want to kill him myself but sometimes we strengthen our position by seemingly doing nothing at all. Doing nothing, or seeming to, isn't being a doormat. It's an awful lot harder than confronting him but there is a lot of power in it, quietly knowing that you're stacking the cards in your favour while he digs his own grave, thinking how terribly clever he is as he does it.

Please go and get legal advice. Unless you still love him and want reconciliation, but this seems to have gone far past that. If you came into the marriage with equity and lost earning potential as a result of raising his children, that would seem to stand in your favour but you really need to get professional advice.

You are not trapped though. There is a way out and it will be alright. You certainly don't have to put up with this shit.

[DameCelia]

Hi @YetAnother1 I'm really sorry you are going through this.
Maybe it helps to look at this as two different issues, practical and emotional?
Practical
Do you have access to your own money at all? You need to be able to pay for some legal advice, but you also need to have the financial information about the marriage.
At a minimum you need to know the value of your house, how much the outstanding mortgage is, his salary and any savings/investments.
Emotional
Yes, you've been dealt a huge blow. Allow yourself a few days to grieve.
In the longer term some counselling might help you understand why you've parented your children in a way that so badly impacted your own position, and whether doing so was a way of insulting yourself from your marriage.
Out of interest, was your husband keen on homeschooling?

In any event be gentle with yourself, this is a long long road you have in front of you. If you burn out now you may settle for less than you need.

[EpochTime]

What would happen if you were just honest with him and told him you'd read his chat with this woman and you therefore want to discuss the state of your marriage?